ALE7575 24 Posted December 15, 2015 This thread is a extract from PAM Reference GUIDE of PAM 616 "Reference PAM REVIEW-GUIDE" - Replica Search, Identification, Evaluation & Selection. https://www.replica-...n-amp-Selection This thread will give you all information, data and links about the PAM 616 reps published in the main forums and the comments and evaluations made by myself after reading and study the reps, all available information and all the pics and QC pics published and received by e-mail and PM. As usually, the final evaluation that I have given, although considered after many hours of study and trying to be an average of general consensus, could have, unavoidably, some subjective component. Anyway, with all comments and links included in this thread you can get info enough to make your own Evaluation more adapted to your taste. Rep production is normally inconsistent, but especially for this concrete rep the problem is bigger than usually, mainly regarding the quality of the Carbotech material: surface, finish and the very special pattern. Therefore, the evaluation job is harder than usually and people could easily get many different opinions regarding the final conclusions. Mainly due to owners opinions are based in their own reps (one or two units) and sometimes because the owners opinions are biased to their reps. As above commented I have tried to be as impartial as possible and to get and average of the general opinions and myself one. PAM 616 “Carbotech”– Overview and Evaluation of all reps – Dec 2015 EVALUATIONS: LOW GRADE REP (KW-V6Fac Forged Carbon w/decorated A7750 NON-inverted KP9000-V2) GOOD REP bordering First Class status (KW-V6Fac Carbotech w/decorated A7750 NON-inverted KP9000-V2) GOOD REP (ZFac Carbotech w/decorated A7750 NON-inverted improved ZP9000-V2.5) GOOD REP bordering First Class status (KW-V6Fac Carbotech w/decorated Seagull NON-inverted KP9000-SeagullV2) GOOD REP (JF Carbotech w/decorated & modified Asian NON-inverted JP9000-BW@9) NOTE: For Carbotech reps if you can live with the inaccurate Pattern of the material, you can upgrade a step the Evaluation, because overall quality is good enough The gen PAM 616 was introduced in 2015 R-series with only 500 units of production. PAM 616 is a Submersible with Luminor 1950 47mm case, with anti-clockwise rotating bezel with graduated scale and solid CG protecting the crown. All these elements are made of a very special composite material, based on carbon fibre, called “Carbotech”. The caseback is closed and made of Titamium black DLC coated. The dial is black with lume 12 and 6 numerals and lume dots, uncharged lume is ecru and charged lume green colour, the dial has some accents in bright blue colour which are matching with a nice OP logo on the strap in the same bright colour. There are also seconds subdial @9 and date window @3. It is fitted with a Panerai Manifattura P.9000 movement with two barrels and 3 days of power reserve. The “Carbotech” is a composite material based on carbon fibre, never before used in the world of watchmaking. As well as providing exceptional technical performance, Carbotech has an uneven, matt black appearance, which varies according the cutting of the material: the result is that each example is unique. The structure of Carbotech is designed to enhance both the aesthetics and the performance of the material, which is used to make the case,the rotating bezel and the lever bridge which protects the winding crown. To form the plates of Carbotech from which these components are made, thin sheets of carbon fibres are compressed at a controlled temperature under high pressure together with a high-end polymer, PEEK (Polyether Ether Ketone), which binds the composite material, making it even stronger and more durable. With this structure, the mechanical properties of Carbotech are much higher than those of similar materials or of other materials used in the world of watchmaking, such as ceramics and titanium: Carbotech is lighter than these and much more resistant to external solicitations, as well as being hypoallergenic and not subject to corrosion. Additionally, each carbon fiber sheet is layered at different angles in order to create the unique striped matte black finish you see on Pam 616, making every single unit of this watch unique as no two will have the same Carbotech™ pattern. To illustrate the way PAM 616 bezel is made see below pics Published by PolonusTM in his PAM 616 review. http://www.replica-w...16-small-review http://www.repgeek.c...ad.php?t=252272 GEN PAM 616 CARBOTECH BEZEL CUT (Figure extracted from PolonusTM review) GEN PAM 616 “Carbotech” TECHNICAL DETAILS MOVEMENT-Automatic mechanical, P.9000 calibre, executed entirely by Panerai, 13¾ lignes, 7.9 mm thick, 28 jewels, Glucydur® balance, 28,800 alternations/hour. Incabloc® anti-shock device. Power reserve 3 days, two barrels. 197 components. FUNCTIONS- Hours, Minutes, Small Seconds, Date, Calculation of immersion time CASE- Diameter 47mm, Carbotech BEZEL- Carbotech. Anti-clockwise unidirectional rotating bezel with graduated scale. BACK- Back Screw, Titanium with hard black coating DEVICE PROTECTIONG THE CROWN- Carbotech DIAL - Dial Black with applied luminous Arabic numerals and dots. Date at 3 o'clock, small seconds at 9 o'clock. CRYSTAL- Sapphire crystal formed of corundum WATER RESISTANCE- Resistance 30 bar (~300 metres) STRAP- Caoutchouc, Black, -, 26.2/21.9 MM Standard CARBOTECH MATERIAL ON REPLICAS Obviously, the main problem to make replicas of PAM 616 is to get the very special material and to get the really unique Carbotech pattern which shows the gen PAM 616. Gen achieves a curious pattern on the surface of the case and mainly on the bezel. As previously commented, this is due to Panerai makes a multilayered piece of Carbotech, with layers of different thickness, curved an cut it with an inclined angle to get a striped pattern with different width and about four different colours, which are achieved by the different thickness of layers and the different orientations of the carbon fibers in the Carbotech original piece. Above commented together with a complicated and expensive process to make the own Carbotech, using strong compression at a controlled temperature with a high-end polymer, PEEK (Polyether Ether Ketone), makes really difficult to manufacture a rep with the same features and appearance at a cost much lower than gen. I have to admit, before to continue with the review that I never liked the result of the rep Carbotech material but I have also to admit that maker have done a big effort to get a decent copy of the gen Carbotech getting an very acceptable approach for the price. There are three aspects that are the main flaws of the rep Carbotech material: -Gen presents at least four different strip colours, because gen material are using at least four different orientation of Carbon fibers between the layers. It looks that reps are using only two directions (maybe with 90º of difference) and are showing only two colours very contrasted and giving the pattern a more or less strong “zebra” effect, completely different from the smooth transition of four strip colours on the gen material. -Gen has different width between strips, due to gen is using layers of carbon fibers with different thickness. Reps usually have the same with mainly in the bezel. -Gen has smooth and soft surface like a matt ceramic. Rep material is not as smooth and many times is a bit rough, like a bit “wooden” (exaggerating a bit). See on below pic some surface imperfections on rep Carbotech material. SURFACE IMPERFECTIONS ON REP CARBOIECH -Is very frequent in rep Carbotech to find “delaminations” (the name is from PolonusTM) in the borders of each layer showing whitish and a bit raised contours. Most likely due to a lower pressure in the Carbotech manufacture, to a worse or different PEEK polymer and a worse or cheaper cutting process or all them together. This “delamination” produces even lost of material in some zones of the case (lug edges) and mainly in the bezel knurling, which some times is really rough and you can easily see a little “grove” between the layers. See some examples of “delamination” in below pics. PAM 616 REP CARBOTECH “DELAMINATION” For some reason rep Carbotech is not as light as expected and reps PAM 616 Carbotech are not lighter than a similar Titanium rep. Weight is about 150 g. with rubber strap included. Anyway, as above commented a good approach for the price. The rep Carbotech when is appropriately made and well pressed (not always is like that) feels like ceramic and the touch is soft and smooth. But rep Carbotech leaves a lot to be desired and the gen-like appearance is far for the appearance achieved by the best replicas made of ceramic. Above commented is thoroughly explained by PolonusTM here: http://www.replica-w...16-small-review http://www.repgeek.c...ad.php?t=252272 First replicas of PAM 616 Carbotech were made of Forged Carbon instead of Carbotech. This is the same material as used on Audemars Piguet ROO reps. It has a “marble” pattern and it is completely different from a Carbotech although the carbon fiber material is similar but with short length. Therefore these first reps are really inaccurate and Low grade reps. See on below pics the differences between the patterns of Gen Carbotech, Forged Carbon and Rep Carbotech. PATTERN DIFFERENCES – GEN CARBOTECH / FORGED CARBON / REP CARBOTECH REPLICAS MADE OF FORGED CARBON -KW-V6Fac Forged Carbon w/decorated A7750 NON-inverted KP9000-V2 April 2014- KW-V6Fac released the first rep of PAM 6161 Carbotech. This rep as above commented was made of Forged Carbon, the same material as used in AP ROO reps. It is a good material made with real carbon fiber, with “marble” pattern and, therefore completely inaccurate for the rep of a PAM 6161 Carbotech. The overall finish of the watch is not bad but some parts leave a lot to be desired, see the rough surface of the dial and the badly finished bezel minute markers from 12 to 3. This rep is fitted with a P.9000 decorated A7750 NON-inverted KP900-V2. This is IMO a waste of movement for an inaccurate rep More info here: https://www.replica-...-must-be-repped! by rolexwatchfan https://www.replica-...M-616)-released by Shelby1501 Whatever is the rest of the watch above mentioned flaws are enough to get an evaluation o Low grade rep. This is not at all an advisable purchase. Keep far away from them Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALE7575 24 Posted December 16, 2015 REPLICAS MADE OF CARBOTECH -KW-V6Fac Carbotech w/decorated A7750 NON-inverted KP9000-V2 May 2015- KW-V6Fac released a rep PAM 616 without Series with PN XXXXXXX serial number made of Carbotech. This is the first rep with real Carbotech material. This rep is fitted with a KP9000-V2 decorated movement like P.9000 with correct NON-inverted layout based on A7750. Since this movement is A7750 based, the balance wheel is much bigger than gen and it is still placed @11 instead of @7 like gen movement, but it has correct layout the same as gen. Bridges shape is not yet a mirror image of the gen but a copy of the gen bridges shape. Balance cock orientation is now exactly the same as gen. In the same way the inscriptions are placed and oriented just like gen. This NON-inverted layout is achieved by a technical trick: Maker has used a false decoration of balance cock in the same orientation as gen. In this case maker has not reduced the real balance cock, just like ZFac improved V2.5 decorations, and leaves it hidden under the regulation device and the false escapement wheel. It is really enough, because you cannot see the real balance cock without a close inspection and always knowing this matter. This avoids the possible problems produced by the reduction of the real balance cock. As above commented maker has used a false decoration of balance cock in the same orientation as gen has, in this movement the shape of this decoration balance cock is much more accurate than ZFac V2, very similar to ZFac improved V2.5. In this way the movement main bridges can get a layout the same as the gen watch, with bridges inscriptions placed in correct orientation. The brushing and finish are very good, better than in ZFac movements. Bridges inscriptions have accurate fonts. The finish, colour and thickness of fonts are accurate enough but a bit thicker and worse than ZFac inscriptions and with some variations between batches. But we have to say that ZFac movements have overall better inscriptions, even in the rotor, with thin fonts, sharp and well defined engravings. The overall layout is correct, but the accuracy of inscription positions, in relation with the case, is impossible because, as above said, rep balance wheel is placed @11, then all inscriptions are displaced due to that. This movement has a shape and size of the balance wheel “hole” very accurate, getting a great gen-like appearance. With above mentioned features this KP9000-V2 movement has better accuracy than previous version, making this movement the most accurate decorated A7750 based P.9000 starting 2015 together with the improved Zfac decorated P.9000 NON-inverted ZP9000-V2.5 Although above improvements always bear in mind that, despite these movements have NON-inverted layout, they still have the balance wheel placed @11 instead of @7 like gen. Bellow is showed movement KP9000-V2 in comparison with the gen. Pic at the center shows the movement in the same alignment (see the crowns). The Pic at the right side shows the rep movement rotated to match the position of the gen balance wheel. GEN P.9000 – KW-V6Fac DECORATED A7750 NON-INVERTED COMPARISON Center- WATCHES IN THE SAME POSITION Right side-WATCHES ROTATED TO GET MATCHING. See the crowns in different position As you can see in above pic, everything is placed in the same orientation but in different position from gen and the balance wheel zone (balance wheel “hole” and decoration of balance cock) seems in this movement much more accurate than in ZFAc V2, very similar to ZFac V2.5. Since the caseback is closed the movement accuracy is interesting but not decisive. CARBOTECH MATERIAL KW-V6Fac Carbotech presents, as in all reps, inaccurate pattern with two tones and “zebra” effect. It is very noticeable in bezel, being an obvious tell of the rep. The effect is less noticeable in mid case but it is always more contrasted in colours than gen. KW-V6Fac has the more contrasted “zebra” effect because this maker is using two very contrasted colours of the layers, maybe with opposite orientation of 90º. The surfaces are usually smooth and soft, maybe the best in 2105 reps together with JF version. “Delamination” is sometimes evident in the borders of the carbon fiber layers of the bezel surface with whitish colour and a bit raised material. MID-CASE Cushion and lug shape are the most accurate of 2015 replicas, with correct position of the lug holes. See below the case shape comparison pic with gen CASE SHAPE - GEN – KW-V6Fac COMPARISON BEZEL Aside the issue of Carbotech pattern and “delamination”, bezel shape and knurling are accurate. Edges are not as nice, clean, and sharp as gen but the quality is usually good enough and quite consistent. Pearl is accurate enough and with almost correct colour, just a bit less glossy than gen and with a black rim contour accurate but with the upper edge a bit rounded instead of a bit fat like gen. BEZEL PEARL - KW-V6Fac – GEN COMPARISON Black bezel little dots are accurate but a bit more raised than gen and glossier, the same as PAM 508 dots, but gen PAM 616 has less raised dots. Big numeral dots (15, 30, 45) are also a bit raised and have accurate numeral fonts with a thickness similar to the gen. The colour of numerals are a bit golden like gen. The minute markers from 12 to 3 are well made and painted with golden colour like gen but more yellow than gen. This colour should be the same as numeral bezel markers but it actually is a bit more yellow. It seems that KW-V6Fac has already corrected these issues in last batches, because KW catalogue shows, slightly golden bezel numeral markers matching nicely with golden minute markers from 12 to 3. It is really accurate golden colour. http://www.kuvarsit....vement-from-kw/ Many people think that the lume and above commented markers should match, but, as above commented, the gen bezel markers are actually golden. Other reps like ZFac and SF have matched lume and markers but this is inaccurate. IMO the best bezel of PAM 616 2015 reps CROWN GUARD - CROWN The same comments as above in relation with Carbotech material. CG of this version has accurate shape, with good finish and nice chamfered corners. Chamfered is usually worse than ZFac version which has the best chamfered on corners. CG lever is also OK with the tip a tad thinner than gen and with a bit sharper edges, but accurate enough, the rounded tappet pushing the crown is very accurate, KW-V6Fac lever is the most accurate of 2015 reps. CG pin is matt and flat whereas ZFac pin has rounded edge and is glossy. Gen has not a defined CG pin because as Polonus has stated there are gens with matt and flat pin and gens with glossy and rounded edges pin. Therefore both are somehow accurate. REG. T.M. engravings are less evident in gen, maybe because in gen are not an engraving but stamped letters. Fonts and placement are not perfect but the differences are few noticeable. Crown is accurate with correct thickness See above commented in below CG comparison pic: CROWN GUARD - GEN – KW-V6Fac – ZFac - SF COMPARISON CASEBACK Made of Titanium. Engravings on caseback are deep and sharp like gen FIRENZE-1860-OP 7026-PN XXXXXXX accurate fonts and well placed. PN XXXXXXX a bit higher. Inner circle engravings with accurate fonts and placed a bit inwards. No Production number R XXX/500 OFFICINE PANERAI–SUBMERSIBLE external circle engravings with accurate placement and fonts DIAL Layout- almost perfect Dot markers – accurate shape and colour Numeral markers – accurate shape, placement, colour and lume application, just a little bit less raised sausage and less glossy than gen, with a very slim lighter contour. I have seen some gen PAM 6161 without this slim contour and some others with the contour. The contour of the gen when is present has the same colour as lume material and is almost no noticeable. Anyway, these differences are visible by good macro pics, in real size are few noticeable and less if you don’t know this matter. See below pics to illustrate the differences. The rep pics are from a KW-V6Fac but it is the same for all 2105 PAM 616 reps. SAUSAGE LUME STRUCTURE - REPLICAS – GEN COMPARISON See the slim lighter contour in rep sausage markers and the less glossy rep lume material Inscriptions- very accurate in colours, fonts and placement, sharp and nicely defined. Shiny and raised like gen. The best inscriptions of 2015 reps. Date fonts- as usually in KW-V6Fac a little bit bolder and a tad taller than gen with good colour. Cannon pinion- flat and polished enough with accurate size. Hands- accurate with correct lume with awesome quality of application. Lume in darkness- strong lume with green colour like gen. By far the best dial of 2015 reps Concentric circles on seconds subdial @9 are not visible in gen subdial. In this regard KW-V6Fac is the most accurate because the concentric circles are present but are smaller than competitors and are usually few noticeable. These small circles allow that paint can cover the groves, and avoiding shiny reflections. This covering is of course really variable and depends on the viscosity and thickness of the painting. The most accurate rep subdial in 2015 reps. See below a comparison pic. CONCENTRIC CIRCLES ON SECONDS SUBDIAL @9 - KW-V6Fac – ZFac - JF STRAP Nice standard submersible 26mm accordion strap but with black, matte DLC’ed buckle. Soft enough almost like gen. Nicely applied Blue OP Logo. Good overall rep strap Many of above data are extracted from the great review by PolonusTM: http://www.replica-w...16-small-review by PolonusTM http://www.repgeek.c...ad.php?t=252272 by PolonusTM More info here: http://www.rwg.bz/bo...howtopic=100850 by Kuvarsit http://www.repgeek.c...ad.php?t=251919 by Puretime https://www.replica-...-carbotech-OUT-! by Midnightguy http://www.repgeek.c...ad.php?t=251904 by tridad Some comments about PAM 616 KW-V6Fac and ZFac http://www.replica-w...m-616-V6F-or-ZF by alfamesterem https://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/263884-Which-edition-Is-the-best-for-PAM-616 by waltergoh CONCLUSIONS: KW-V6Fac PAM 616, leaving aside the rep Carbotech material, has accurate mid-case, accurate bezel only with a bit yellowish bezel minute markers from 12 to 3 and a bit raised dots. CG is good and accurate. Dial, hands and CP are really good, and caseback is quite accurate and had no production number but a prototype serial number. But the rep Carbotech pattern is an obvious flaw for this rep and we cannot give a First Class rep evaluation. We can say it is a Good rep bordering a First Class rep status. Anyway if you can live with the inaccurate rep Carbotech pattern you can upgrade a step this rep. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALE7575 24 Posted December 16, 2015 -ZFac Carbotech w/decorated A7750 NON-inverted improved ZP9000-V2.5 June 2015- ZFac released a rep PAM 616 R-series marked and made of Carbotech. This rep is fitted with ZP9000-V2.5 improved decorated movement like P.9000 with correct NON-inverted layout still based on A7750, but improved in relation with the previous version V2. Since this movement is A7750 based, the balance wheel is much bigger than gen and it is still placed @11 instead of @7 like gen movement, but it has correct layout the same as gen. Bridges shape is not yet a mirror image of the gen but a copy of the gen bridges shape. Balance cock orientation is now exactly the same as gen. In the same way the inscriptions are placed and oriented just like gen. This NON-inverted layout is achieved by a technical trick: Maker has used a false decoration of balance cock in the same orientation as gen, the same as previous version, but in this case maker has not reduced the real balance cock, just like KW decorations, and leaves it hidden under the regulation device and the false escapement wheel. It is really enough, because you cannot see the real balance cock without a close inspection and always knowing this matter. This is the first improvement, avoiding the possible problems produced by the reduction of the real balance cock. As above commented maker has used a false decoration of balance cock in the same orientation as gen has, but in this movement the shape of this decoration balance cock is much more accurate than previous one, this is the second improvement. In this way the movement main bridges can get a layout the same as the gen watch, with bridges inscriptions placed in correct orientation. The brushing and finish are good, but not as nicely made as in KW decorations. Bridges inscriptions are more accurate in fonts and better defined than inverted version. We have to say that the new ZP9000-V2.5 has very nice inscriptions, even in the rotor, with thin fonts, sharp and well defined and in my opinion clearly better than previous inverted versions from ZFac or KW. The overall layout is correct, but the accuracy of inscription positions, in relation with the case, is impossible because, as above said, rep balance wheel is placed @11, then all inscriptions are displaced due to that. In this movement maker has introduced another improvement modifying the shape of bridges decoration to get a rep balance wheel “hole” almost the same as gen. With above mentioned improvements this ZP9000-V2.5 movement has better accuracy than previous version, making this movement the most accurate decorated A7750 based P.9000 starting 2015 together with the KW decorated P.9000 NON-inverted KP9000-V2. Those are significant improvements but always bear in mind that, although these movements have NON-inverted layout, they still have the balance wheel placed @11 instead of @7 like gen. Bellow is showed New movement ZP9000-V2.5 in comparison with the gen. Pic at the center shows the movement in the same alignment (see the crowns). The Pic at the right side shows the rep movement rotated to match the position of the gen balance wheel. GEN P.9000 - ZFAC DECORATED A7750 IMPROVED NON-INVERTED ZP9000-V2.5 COMPARISON Center- WATCHES IN THE SAME POSITION Right side-WATCHES ROTATED TO GET MATCHING. See the crowns in different position As you can see in above pic, everything is placed in the same orientation but in different position from gen and the balance wheel zone (balance wheel “hole” and decoration of balance cock) seems in this movement much more accurate than in ZFAc V2. CARBOTECH MATERIAL ZFac Carbotech presents, as in all reps, inaccurate pattern with two tones and “zebra” effect. It is very noticeable in bezel, being an obvious tell of the rep. The effect is less noticeable in mid case but it is always more contrasted in colours than gen. Some batches of ZFac reps present less contrasted “zebra” effect because are using two colours of carbon fibers less different between them, maybe using also less difference of orientation between layers. The effect is less “zebra” but it is still inaccurate because there are still only two tones. Maybe this few contrasted tones of colour produce that the ZFac bezel knurking looks more black than the rest of the watch, as you can usually see in ZFac Carbotech reps. “Delamination” is sometimes evident in the borders of the carbon fiber layers of the bezel surface with whitish colour and a bit raised material. Regarding the material finish and surface appearance we would need to clarify that ZFac is a bit inconsistent and sometimes the Carbotech looks rough and bad finished. Read about this matter below thread: https://www.replica-...PAM616-Carbotec by chris3007 Above thread doesn’t prove that all reps from ZFac are the same, it just means that ZFac Carbotech is not always as good as expected. KW-V6Fac is more consistent in this regard. MID-CASE Cushion shape is not as accurate as KW-V6Fac because it is clearly less “squared”, lug shape is also less accurate than KW-V6Fac. Lug holes are place in a lower position. We could say that ZFac PAM 616 has the same case as gen PAM 389, instead of gen PAM 508 or the own PAM 616. ZFac is the less accurate case shape of 2015. See below the case shape comparison pic with gen CASE SHAPE - GEN – ZFac COMPARISON BEZEL Aside the issue of Carbotech pattern and “delamination”, bezel shape and knurling are accurate, although ZFac bezel looks many times darker than gen and than its own case. Upper external bezel edge is narrower than gen. The edges are not as nice, clean, and sharp as gen but the quality is usually good enough but a bit inconsistent. Pearl is accurate enough and with almost correct colour, but it is really flat and mainly very matt, without shine. The black rim contour is accurate but with the upper edge a bit rounded instead of a bit fat like gen. BEZEL PEARL - ZFac – GEN COMPARISON Black bezel little dots are accurate, raised almost like gen, glossier than the gen ones, more accurate than KW-V6Fac. Big numeral dots (15, 30, 45) are also raised almost like gen and have a little bolder numeral fonts. The colour of numerals are not golden like gen and matches the dial lume. The minute markers from 12 to 3 are made a bit hit and miss and painted with inaccurate colour matching dial lume instead of golden. These markers are also placed a bit outwards. Many people think that the lume and above commented markers should match, but, as above commented, the gen bezel markers are actually golden. Only KW-V6Fac minute markers from 12 to 3 are golden colour. CROWN GUARD - CROWN The same comments as above in relation with Carbotech material. CG of this version has accurate enough shape, the external bridge protecting the crown is a bit thinner than gen, CG has good finish and nice chamfered corners. Chamfered is usually even better than KW-V6Fac version which, ZFac has the best chamfered on corners. CG lever ha wrong tip, really thinner than gen, the rounded tappet pushing the crown is quite accurate but the KW-V6Fac is better. CG pin of ZFac has rounded edge and is glossy. Gen has not a defined CG pin because as Polonus has stated there are gens with matt and flat pin and gens with glossy and rounded edges pin. Therefore it is somehow accurate. REG. T.M. engravings are less evident in gen, maybe because in gen are not an engraving but stamped letters. Fonts and placement are not perfect but the differences are few noticeable. Crown is inaccurate because it is thinner than gen See comparison pics in previous review of KW-V6Fac version CASEBACK Made of Titanium. Engravings on caseback are sharp but a bit less deep than gen FIRENZE-1860-OP 7026-PN XXXXXXX are well placed, but the fonts are a bit inaccurate because they are a bit taller. Inner circle engravings with a little bigger fonts and placed a bit outwards. Engraved Production number R XXX/500. ZFac is the only rep 2015 with this engraving. OFFICINE PANERAI–SUBMERSIBLE external circle engravings with accurate placement and fonts DIAL Layout- is very good , not as perfect as KW-V6Fac, “6” marker and L SWISS MADE L are placed lower. L SWISS MADE L ZFac inscription is a tad taller. “6” MARKER - GEN – KW-V6Fac – ZFac - SF COMPARISON Dot markers – accurate shape and colour Numeral markers – accurate shape, placement, colour and lume application, just a little bit less raised sausage and less glossy than gen, with a very slim lighter contour. I have seen some gen PAM 6161 without this slim contour and some others with the contour. The contour of the gen when is present has the same colour as lume material and is almost no noticeable. Anyway, these differences are visible by good macro pics, in real size are few noticeable and less if you don’t know this matter. See below pics to illustrate the differences. See comparison pics in the review of KW-V6Fac, it is the same for all 2105 PAM 616 reps. Inscriptions- very accurate in colours and placement, shiny, raised, sharp and nicely defined, but a little bolder and less accurate than KW-V6Fac. Date fonts- accurate as usually in ZFac, better than KW-V6Fac, with good colour Cannon pinion- flat and well polished but bigger than gen and with the ZFAC weird typical ZFac raised rim in the contour. IMO the worse CP of 2015 reps. ZFac CANNON PINION AND HANDS – COMPARISON WITH GEN Hands- They have correct lume with correct quality of application. As you can see in above pic comparison pic, ZFac hands have wrong section because they are rounded with rounded edges whereas gen are almost flat and with sharp edges. The worse hands of 2015 reps. Lume in darkness- strong lume with nice but inaccurate blue colour. Concentric circles on seconds subdial @9 are not visible in gen subdial. In this regard ZFac is not accurate, because the concentric circles are really visible an deep and are really noticeable. These big grooves don’t allow that paint can cover the groves and produce wrong shiny reflactions. This covering is of course really variable and depends on the viscosity and thickness of the painting. Similar to JF subdial in this regard and obviously less accurate than KW-V6Fac. See the comparison pics on KW-V6Fac review STRAP Nice standard submersible 26mm accordion strap but with black, matte DLC’ed buckle. Soft enough almost like gen. Nicely applied Blue OP Logo. Good overall rep strap Some comments about PAM 616 KW-V6Fac and ZFac http://www.replica-w...m-616-V6F-or-ZF by alfamesterem https://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/263884-Which-edition-Is-the-best-for-PAM-616 by waltergoh CONCLUSIONS: ZFac PAM 616, leaving aside the rep Carbotech material, has inaccurate accurate mid-case shape with wrong lugs, accurate bezel with inaccurate colour and placement of minute markers from 12 to 3 and a bit raised dots. CG is very good and accurate, the best CG on PAM 616 2015 reps. Dial is accurate but worse than KW-V6Fac. Hands have very rounded section and edges and CP is the big and weird typical ZFac with raised rim. Caseback is quite accurate with some inaccurate fonts and with production number R XXX/500. The rep Carbotech pattern is an obvious flaw for this rep and we cannot give a First Class rep evaluation. We can say ZFac is just a Good rep. Anyway if you can live with the inaccurate rep Carbotech pattern you can upgrade a step this rep. -KW-V6Fac Carbotech w/decorated Seagull NON-inverted KP9000-SeagullV2 July 2015- KW-V6Fac released a rep PAM 616 without Series with PN XXXXXXX serial number made of Carbotech. This rep is based in previous rep from KW-V6Fac, it has the same structure but just the movement changes. This rep is fitted with a new KP9000-SeagullV2 decorated movement like P.9000 with correct NON-inverted layout based on Seagull ST2555. Since this movement is Seagull based, the balance wheel is placed @6 instead of @7 like gen movement and is much bigger than gen. This placement @6 is an advantage over the A7750 based movements, because it is closer to gen placement @7 than in A7750 which have the balance wheel @11. This movement has correct layout the same as gen. Bridges shape is not yet a mirror image of the gen but a copy of the gen bridges shape. Balance cock orientation is now exactly the same as gen. In the same way the inscriptions are placed and oriented just like gen. This NON-inverted layout is achieved by a technical trick: Maker has used a false decoration of balance cock in the same orientation as gen. In this case maker has not reduced the real balance cock, just like ZFac improved V2.5 and KW NON-inverted decorations, and leaves it hidden under the regulation device and the false escapement wheel. It is really enough, because you cannot see the real balance cock without a close inspection and always knowing this matter, anyway it is more visible than in A7750 based movements. This avoids the possible problems produced by the reduction of the real balance cock. As above commented maker has used a false decoration of balance cock in the same orientation as gen has, in this movement the shape of this decoration balance cock is much more accurate than ZFac V2, very similar to ZFac improved V2.5 and KW V2. In this way the movement main bridges can get a layout the same as the gen watch, with bridges inscriptions placed in correct orientation. The brushing and finish are very good, better than in ZFac movements. Bridges inscriptions have accurate fonts. The finish, colour and thickness of fonts are accurate enough but a bit thicker and worse than ZFac inscriptions and with some variations between batches. But we have to say that ZFac movements have overall better inscriptions, even in the rotor, with thin fonts, sharp and well defined engravings. The overall layout is correct, but the accuracy of inscription positions, in relation with the case, is impossible because, as above said, rep balance wheel is placed @6, then all inscriptions are displaced due to that, but much less than in A7750 based movements where the balance wheel is placed @11. This movement has a shape and size of the balance wheel “hole” very accurate, but smaller than A7750 based movements and gen, getting a great gen-like appearance but inferior than A7750 movements. With above mentioned features this KP9000-Seagull V2 movement has overall better accuracy than previous versions, making this movement the most accurate decorated based P.9000 starting 2015 with advantage over the A7750 based decorations either Zfac V2.5 or KW V2. Besides Seagull movement is cheaper and overall more reliable. Although above improvements always bear in mind that, despite these movements have NON-inverted layout, they still have the balance wheel placed @6 instead of @7 like gen. Below is showed movement KP9000-Seagull V2 in comparison with the gen. Pic at the center shows the movement in the same alignment (see the crowns). The Pic at the right side shows the rep movement rotated to match the position of the gen balance wheel. GEN P.9000 – KW-V6Fac DECORATED SEAGULL NON-INVERTED COMPARISON Center- WATCHES IN THE SAME POSITION Right side-WATCHES ROTATED TO GET MATCHING. See the crowns in different position As you can see in above pic, everything is placed in the same orientation but in different position from gen and the balance wheel zone (balance wheel “hole” and decoration of balance cock) seems in this movement much more accurate than in ZFAc V2, very similar to ZFac V2.5 and KW V2. The rest of the watch, as above commented, is the same as previous KW-V6Fac version fitted with A7750 based movement previously reviewed. CONCLUSIONS Since the rep is the same as previous version the difference is just the new movement decorated Seagull NON-inverted. This movement is more accurate (balance wheel @6 closer to gen @7) and at least is as reliable as A7750. Due to closed caseback this difference of movement accuracy doesn’t justify an upgrading of evaluation. Therefore we will keep the evaluation of Good rep bordering First Class rep status. Due to accuracy, reliability and, besides, cheaper price, this version is IMO the best option in October 2015. Although A7750 lovers will prefer previous KW-V6Fac version fitted with decorated A7750 NON-inverted KP9000-V2. If you can live with the inaccurate rep Carbotech pattern you can upgrade a step this rep. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALE7575 24 Posted December 16, 2015 -JF Carbotech w/decorated & modified Asian NON-inverted JP9000-BW@9 September 2015- JFac released a rep PAM 616 without Series with PN XXXXXXX serial number made of Carbotech. The greatest innovation in this rep is a new JF movement. Although some announcements from dealers are saying that it is a new Clone, as we will see below this movement is not at all a Clone, it is actually a decorated Asian movement (unknown) like Manifattura P.9000 with NON-inverted layout. The placement of Balance wheel is @9 in this JF movement. Being this placement @9 diametrically opposite to the Crown, it is more noticeable IMO than @6 (Seagull) and @11 (A7750) of previous decorated movements. We could call this movement JP9000-BW@9 GEN P.9000 – SF DECORATED ASIAN NON-INVERTED COMPARISON Center- WATCHES IN THE SAME POSITION Right side-WATCHES ROTATED TO GET MATCHING. See the crowns in different position This movement has some advantages in relation with existent rep movements, because it has some gen P.9000 functions that previous rep movement didn’t have, like adjustable date in both directions clockwise or anti-clockwise and adjustable hour hand independently of the minute and second hands. But it has also some important flaws: -Second hand axle is clearly placed closer to the central axle -Date window and date wheel fonts have also inaccurate placement, window and mainly the date fonts are also clearly displaced to the center. -Date fonts are completely inaccurate really bigger than gen. The colour is more yellow than the dial markers colour. In below pic you can see above mentioned differences, comparing gen, KW-V6Fac and SF version. Please note the green lines of SF movement and the orange lines of gen a KW-V6Fac. Green lines are clearly displaced to the center in relation with orange lines position. PLACEMENT OF DATE WINDOW AND SECONDS HAND AXLE – DATE FONTS PLACEMENT AND ACCURACY GEN – KW-V6Fac – SF COMPARISON -Main circular bridge of decoration is bigger than gen. Indeed we can see a half of the engravings on bridges remain under the rotor, whereas in gen and other rep decorated movements the engravings are completely visible and are not hidden by the rotor -Rotor bearing cup is different from gen (really noticeable) -The Balance wheel “hole” is smaller and really inaccurate, in the same way as the first inaccurate ZFacs. -The diameter of the Balance wheel is similar to gen (more accurate than previous rep movements) but the placement of the balance wheel axle is also very close to the center, producing a weird and inaccurate look. -Due to above commented placement of the balance wheel axle, the decoration of the balance cock is completely different from gen Engravings on bridges and rotor are nicely made but the colour is a bit darker Above mentioned flaws, the obviously decorated balance cock, the false escapement wheel and the decoration of the main bridge denote it is a decorated and modified unknown Asian movement and not a Clone. Which could be the reason to make a Clone with all above mentioned differences? See a pic of the movement with decoration removed and the own decoration in below post : https://www.replica-...l=1#post2500087 by rnrprof SF P.9000 DECORATED ASIAN NON-INVERTED W/ BALANCE WHEEL @9 - SP9000-BW@9 (Figure extracted from rnrprof post) Despite the gen functions available, with such a flaws this movement cannot be considered as a better alternative for P.9000 reps than the current competitors like the ZFac ZP9000-V2.5 and the KW-V6Fac KP9000-V2. Movement flaws in the back could be admitted mainly for closed caseback watches, but clearly bad placed second hand axle and date window with displaced and bigger fonts are noticeable and serious flaws on dial which will avoid getting good evaluations for the reps fitted with this movement. More info about this movement decorated Asian movement modified SP9000-BW@9 in below links: http://www.repgeek.c...ad.php?t=258800 by Puretime Comments about the new movement https://www.replica-...9431-new-JF-616 by rnrprof https://www.replica-...eased-on-pam359 by sweden https://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/260695-New-616-569-from-JF?p=2435002&viewfull=1#post2435002 by Jonnyknox CARBOTECH MATERIAL JF Carbotech presents, as in all reps, inaccurate pattern with two tones and “zebra” effect. It is very noticeable in bezel, being an obvious tell of the rep. The effect is less noticeable in mid case but it is always more contrasted in colours than gen. Anyway, usually JF reps present much less contrasted “zebra” effect because are using two colours of carbon fibers much less different between them, maybe using also less difference of orientation between layers. The “zebra” effect is even smoother than in ZFac, but it is still more inaccurate because, there are only two few differentiated tones and somehow the Carbotech pattern is lost. Maybe this few contrasted tones of colour produce that JF bezel knurking, like happened on ZFac reps, looks more black than the rest of the watch, as you can usually see in JF Carbotech reps. “Delamination” is sometimes evident in the borders of the carbon fiber layers of the bezel surface with whitish colour and a bit raised material. Regarding the material finish and surface appearance we can see is good and seemingly consistent. MID-CASE Cushion and lugs shape are as accurate as KW-V6Fac. Lug holes are well placed. See below the case shape comparison pic with gen CASE SHAPE - GEN – JF COMPARISON BEZEL Aside the issue of Carbotech pattern and “delamination”, bezel shape and knurling are accurate. The edges are not as nice, clean, and sharp as gen but the quality is usually good enough and consistent. Pearl is accurate enough, maybe the shape is the most accurate of three current versions, slightly domed like gen, glossy like gen, but, unfortunately, the colour is completely wrong, really yellow. Even the black rim contour is most likely also the most accurate, with flat upper edge, unfortunately the own pearl lume material fills the rim in excess and covers a part of the upper edge and, in this way, pearl looks bigger whereas rim looks thinner. The final result is really inaccurate. BEZEL PEARL - JF – GEN COMPARISON Black bezel little dots are accurate, raised almost like gen, less glossy than the other versions, just more accurate. Big numeral dots (15, 30, 45) are accurate but have a little bolder numeral fonts. The colour of numerals are not golden like gen and matches the dial lume or is even more white. The minute markers from 12 to 3 are well made, but painted with inaccurate colour matching the 15-30-45 bezel markers instead of golden. Many people think that the lume and above commented markers should match, but, as above commented, the gen bezel markers are actually golden. Only KW-V6Fac minute markers from 12 to 3 are golden colour. CROWN GUARD - CROWN The same comments as above in relation with Carbotech material. CG of this version has accurate shape, with good finish but with wrong cornmers withour chamfered. CG lever is OK with the tip much thinner and longer than gen, with clearly sharper edges, and very detached from the case, the rounded tappet pushing the crown is not accurate, very angked and wurth wring roller, JF lever is the worse of 2015 reps. CG pin is KW-like matt and flat. Gen has not a defined CG pin because as Polonus has stated there are gens with matt and flat pin and gens with glossy and rounded edges pin. Therefore it is somehow accurate. REG. T.M. engravings are less evident in gen, maybe because in gen are not an engraving but stamped letters. Fonts and placement are not perfect but the differences are few noticeable. Crown is accurate with correct thickness See comparison pics in previous review of KW-V6Fac version CASEBACK Made of Titanium. Engravings on caseback are sharp but a bit less deep than gen. FIRENZE-1860-OP 7026-PN XXXXXXX are well placed, but the fonts are a bit inaccurate because they are a bit taller. Inner circle engravings with a little bigger fonts and placed a bit outwards. No Production number R XXX/500 OFFICINE PANERAI–SUBMERSIBLE external circle engravings with accurate placement, but the fonts of SUBMERSIBLE are clearly bigger than gen. DIAL Layout- is overall good , not as perfect as KW-V6Fac or ZFac. “6” marker and L SWISS MADE L are placed a bit lower. As commented in movement section date window is placed closer to the center and date fonts are really bigger Dot markers – Thicker rim contour and lighter colour (more white) Numeral markers – Thicker fonts, the lume colour is also lighter (more white), accurate lume application, just a bit less raised sausage and less glossy than gen, with a very slim lighter contour. I have seen some gen PAM 6161 without this slim contour and some others with the contour. The contour of the gen when is present has the same colour as lume material and is almost no noticeable. Anyway, these differences are visible by good macro pics, in real size are few noticeable and less if you don’t know this matter. See below pics to illustrate the differences. See comparison pics in the review of KW-V6Fac, it is the same for all 2105 PAM 616 reps. Inscriptions-they are overall worse than KW and ZFac, lighter colours, slightly inaccurate fonts, some differences on placement, but still shiny, raised, sharp and nicely defined Date fonts- Inaccurate and bigger than gen Cannon pinion- flat and well polished but much bigger than gen, most likely due to it is a cup. Hands- accurate, with correct lume quality of application, lume colour a bit lighter . Lume in darkness- strong lume with correct green colour. Concentric circles on seconds subdial @9 are not visible in gen subdial. In this regard JF is not accurate (the same as JF rep), concentric circles are really visible an deep and are really noticeable. These big gooves don’t allow that paint can cover the groves and produce wrong shiny reflections. This covering is of course really variable and depends on the viscosity and thickness of the painting. Similar to ZFac subdial in this regard and obviously less accurate than KW-V6Fac. See the comparison pics on KW-V6Fac review STRAP Nice standard submersible 26mm accordion strap but with black, matte DLC’ed buckle. Soft enough almost like gen. Nicely applied Blue OP Logo. Good overall rep strap More info here: https://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/260695-New-616-569-from-JF by Jojo88 https://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/263884-Which-edition-Is-the-best-for-PAM-616 by waltergoh CONCLUSIONS This SF PAM 616 Carbotech version is overall a good attempt from the maker. Unfortunately, aside the issues inherent to Carbotech material, it has many other flaws and some of them really bothering and non acceptable with the current level of PAM reps. Since the caseback is closed we can admit the inaccuracies on movement and we like the gen features added. Inaccurate lume colours, inaccurate painting colour of bezel markers (numerals and sticks), inaccurate pearl colour, bolder numeral markers on dial and “6” bad placed, inaccurate date fonts, bad placement of date window and seconds axle, nice but bigger CP, wrong roller on CG lever… are many flaws to get better evaluation than just Good rep and obviously the worse option in October 2015. PAM 616 Carbotech REPLICA links: -KW-V6Fac Forged Carbon w/decorated A7750 NON-inverted KP9000-V2 http://www.kuvarsit....vement-from-kw/ http://puretime.watch/product/pam616-forged-carbon-v6f-special-edition-on-black-rubber-strap-p9000/ http://www.ts-statio...f-ru-p9000.html not available http://www.torobravo...product_id=1768 http://www.intime.co...trap-p9000.html http://www.ttw8488.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=352&products_id=13260 -KW-V6Fac Carbotech w/A7750 NON-inverted KP9000-V2 http://www.kuvarsit....vement-from-kw/ http://puretime.watc...er-strap-p9000/ http://www.ts-statio...u-p9000-v2.html http://www.7750asian...w.asp?P_id=3476 http://www.torobravo...product_id=1599 http://www.intime.co...trap-p9000.html http://www.ttw8488.c...oducts_id=13392 http://www.pf-818.co...ch-p-17330.html -ZFac Carbotech w/decorated A7750 NON-inverted improved ZP9000-V2.5 http://pure-time.com...er-strap-p9000/ http://www.torobravo2015.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1600 http://www.intime.co...trap-p9000.html -KW-V6Fac Carbotech w/decorated Seagull NON-inverted KP9000-SeagullV2 http://www.kuvarsit....vement-from-kw/ http://pure-time.com...er-strap-p9000/ http://www.ts-statio...l-st255-v2.html http://www.ttw8488.c...oducts_id=13714 -JF Carbotech w/decorated & modified Asian NON-inverted JP9000-BW@9 http://puretime.watc...ap-p9000-clone/ http://www.ts-statio...1-ru-p9000.html http://www.intime.co...9000-clone.html GEN links: http://www.bhindi.co...omatic-pam00616 http://www.paneraiso...porary_378.html http://www.panerai.c...l=0&wmf-color=0 http://www.horbiter....e/#!prettyPhoto http://www.bloomberg...d-in-car-brakes http://www.thewatcho...botech-pam-616/ http://blog.perpetue...1950-carbotech/ http://www.deployant...3-days-pam-616/ Thanks for reading ALE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Omar Alberto Mera 0 Posted December 16, 2015 Thanks !! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hyped 0 Posted December 16, 2015 Another fine overview! Your the man Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gazzla 23 Posted December 16, 2015 Fucking hell, ALE. You never cease to amaze me. Fantastic review. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0negin 0 Posted September 17, 2017 This is the most informative rewew i've ever seen, thank you so much! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
