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ALE7575

PAM 285 – Review and Evaluation of KW-V6Fac rep from January 2016

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ALE7575

This thread is an extract from PAM Reference GUIDE of PAM 0285

"Reference PAM REVIEW-GUIDE" - Replica Search, Identification, Evaluation & Selection.

https://www.replica-...n-amp-Selection

 

This thread will give you all information, data and links about the PAM 285 reps published in the main forums and the comments and evaluations made by myself after reading and study the reps, all available information and all the pics and QC pics published and received by e-mail and PM.

This watch also shows some differences between gen batches, as you will see in showed pics. Due to that the review has an added complexity not having a fixed reference.

As usually, the final evaluation that I have given, although considered after many hours of study and trying to be an average of general consensus, could have, unavoidably, some subjective component.

Anyway, with all comments and links included in this thread you can get info enough to make your own Evaluation more adapted to your taste.

People could easily get many different opinions regarding the final conclusions. Owner opinions are usually based in their own reps (one or two units) and sometimes are biased to their reps.

As above commented I have tried to be as impartial as possible and to get and average of the general opinions and myself one.

 

 

PAM 285 – Review and Evaluation of KW-V6Fac rep from January 2016

 

PAM285%20copiar_zpsavm6nkst.jpg

 

EVALUATIONS:

(**)SUPER REP ( K-series KW/V6Fac with A7750 decorated like OPIII )

 

The gen PAM 285 is a Unique edition of 250 units introduced in 2008 K-series. PAM 285 is a Submersible 2500m with 47mm Luminor case 1950 type with solid caseback, both made of brushed Titanium and an impressive unidirectional rotating Diver’s bezel made of brushed SS, with polished big solid metallic numeral markers (with detached numbers) @ 15-30 and 45, other markers are polished big metallic sticks. The contour features a squared knurling, to make easier the rotating function, with nicely polished external faces. The bezel features a pearl @12 hrs. with a metallic polished triangular support. There is also a narrow black circular track between the crystal and the bezel body which shows stick diving markers from 12 to 3 hrs., minute diving markers are brushed SS colour. This track was also used in 2103 for the very well known PAM 364.

Case, bezel, knurling and the overall watch are inspired by the 2004 SUB 2500m PAM 194. In 2004 was also released a SUB 1000m Chrono, PAM 187, which features similar bezel but without diving minute markers from 12 to 3 hrs. and smaller metallic stick markers. In 2010 PAM 358 was also released, it is a similar watch but with destro layout with CG at left side.

 

Three above commented watches PAM 385-194-358 are Unique Editions of limited quantity, SUBs 2500m with very thick 5,9mm sapphire crystal, the same brushed Ti case and caseback, the same brushed SS diver’s bezel and brushed CG without REG. T.M. engravings. They are fitted with the OPIII movement based on Valjoux 7750 without chrono functions.

The main difference of these watches (leaving aside the destro layout of PAM 358) is the dial. PAM 194 and 358 have 12 and 6 sausage numeral markers and the rest are sticks, regular sausage in PAM 194 and with embossed contours (like in first versions of PAM 087) in PAM 358. Whereas PAM 285 has a dial with 12 and & sausage numeral markers and the rest are dots with chromed circular contours.

This dial is inspired firstly by the old SUBs PAM 024 and 025, and after used in Regatta models and PAM 106,170,199,243,571 and even 616. PAM 285 has seconds subdial @9 and Date window with Cyclops @3.

See below some links to see complete pictorial comparisons of above commented watches

See pictorial comparison of gens PAM 285 vs.194 http://www.network54...+bottomless+tub+...

See pictorial comparison of gens PAM 285 vs.358 http://www.network54...+all+the+others

See pictorial comparison of reps PAM 285 vs.187 and 364 reps

http://www.repgeek.c...l=1#post2770233 by tridad

 

GEN PAM 285 TECHNICAL DETAILS

MOVEMENT- Automatic mechanical, exclusive Panerai OP III calibre, 13¼ lignes, 21 jewels, PANERAI personalised oscillating weight. Glucydur® balance, 28,800 alternations/hour. Incabloc® anti-shock device. Power reserve 42 hours. Côtes de Genève decoration on the bridges. It is tested and certified by C.O.S.C.

FUNCTIONS- Hours, Minutes, Small Seconds, Date, Calculation of immersion time

CASE-Diameter 47 mm, Titanium

BEZEL-l Brushed steel. Anti - clockwise rotating bezel with graduated scale for measuring the duration of immersions and ratchet click at minute intervals.

BACK- Screw, Titanium

DEVICE PROTECTING THE CROWN- (Protected as a trademark) Brushed Steel

DIAL- Black with luminous Arabic numerals and applied dots. Seconds at 9 o’clock, date at 3 o’clock.

CRYSTAL- Sapphire crystal formed of corundum

WATER RESISTANCE- 250 bar (~2500 metres)

STRAP- Caoutchouc, Black, 26.2/21.9 mm Standard

 

 

 

- PAM 285 K-series KW/V6Fac with A7750 decorated like OPIII

January2016- KW/V6Fac released the first good rep of PAM 285. The rep is a high quality watch made like the gen in materials and features. The quality of the manufacture is really good and gets a strong gen-like appearance, as you can see in below comparison pic.

 

PAM%20285%20FROM%203%20GEN-KW%20COMP-xxxx_zpsbixiwrrt.jpg

PAM 285 – GEN KW-V6Fac OVERALL COMPARISON

 

As always, there are obviously some flaws, as we will see in this review, but all things considered this rep is fantastic.

 

CASE

Mid case is made of Titanium in gen and rep, the shape is accurate enough and the finish has a nicely brushed surface like gen.

Only the lugs have a bit different shape because gen lugs have more curved upper profile getting a more eagle beak appearance. Below pic shows the differences.

 

PAM%20285%20LUG%20COMPARISON-%20xxxxx_zpsvxc9pm7v.jpg

PAM 285 – LUGS AND CASE SHAPE - GEN - KW-V6Fac COMPARISON

 

Regarding colours of the case and bezel there are many polemical comments due to different colours observed by the rep owners. This is not an issue because gen colours are also different. Whatever some gen and rep catalogues or articles say, the case, either gen or rep, is made of Titanium and the bezel is made of SS. This difference of metals produces a different colour between these parts, being the case greyer than bezel.

In the same way the CG body is made of SS but the CG lever is made of Titanium either in gen or rep.

You can see in some gen pics these differences, mainly under some lighting conditions, as you can observe in below gen pics, where the case and the CG lever are clearly greyer. Therefore rep is completely accurate in this regard.

 

PAM%20285%20CASE%20COLOURS%20GEN-%20xxxxx_zpsion48dme.jpg

GEN PAM 285 – COLOUR DIFFERENCES BETWEEN BEZEL & CG, MADE OF SS, AND CASE & CG LEVER MADE OF TITANIUM

 

Rep Helium valve is nicely made and polished with quite accurate He engraving although it is well defined but a bit shallower than gen.

 

BEZEL

Bezel shape and appearance are very accurate and overall rep bezel is very good with nice finish of brushed body and nicely polished markers.

Bezel has unidirectional rotating which works in the rep the same as gen.

Big stick polished markers of the bezel are really accurate in the rep, just with the same profile and shape of the gen, perfectly fitted with the bezel and with a strong gen-like appearance.

Bezel numeral markers are accurate enough, and overall and at real size there are no noticeable differences. But they are not as perfect as stick markers. Gen markers are not at all perfect and there are some differences in thickness and between batches, but overall they are much more uniform than rep. Gen numerals are better defined and the edges and finish are more uniform. The edges at the bottom, in contact with the bezel surface, are squared and sharp making almost perfect the fitting with the bezel surface. Rep numeral markers are much more inconsistent: thickness is variable between batches and even in the same watch, the overall appearance is less uniform and looks always overpolished, the bottom edges are very rounded and they are always bad fitted with the bezel surface. Sometimes rep numerals present gap between their bottom surface and the bezel, mainly in the upper stroke of the “5”. We can see above commented in below pics of the rep markers and bezel.

 

PAM%20285%20MARKERS%20GAPS-%20KW-%20xxxxx_zpskrk7emyf.jpg

REP KW-V6Fav PAM 285 – REP. NUMERAL BEZEL MARKERS

 

See the thickness difference and the bottom edge of the markers, rounded, overpolished and with some gaps with the bezel surface.

Numeral markers fonts are accurate in practice but there are some differences: the inner hole of the “4” is clearly smaller and more round in gen and the rep “30” looks thinner.

Bezel stick markers from 12hrs. to 3hrs. engraved in a black painted track are another inconsistency of the gen. We can see different thickness of the markers in many gen pics, even the stick thickness in the same gen watch is not completely uniform, even the stick thickness in the same watch is not completely uniform. Obviously the gens have sharper, clearer, and better defined markers and the paint of the track is more smooth, but the rep markers are good enough.

Bezel knurling is very well finished and at the real size is accurate enough as you can see in below comparison pic.

 

PAM%20285%20KNURLING%20COMPARISON-xxxxxxxx_zpsow4b0vgf.jpg

PAM 285 – BEZEL KNURLING AND PROFILE - GEN - KW-V6Fac COMPARISON

 

Anyway, the differences are not very noticeable at real size, and therefore, bezel accuracy is really good and maker has made a good job

 

BEZEL PEARL

Due to this is the less accurate part of the rep, bezel pearl deservers a separate section to be reviewed.

There is an advantage for the rep regarding the accuracy of the pearl, because the gen pearl is really inconsistent. There are a lot of gen pearl differences between batches. In effect, we can see many differences of gen pearls just observing gen pics in the websites.

Gen pearl is placed inside a SS polished support with side curved triangular shape. This support has in its center a deep hollow with conical walls where is placed the pearl. The pearl doesn’t usually fill the hollow, but it leaves an space allowing seeing the conical walls of the hollow. This space is from almost inexistent to clearly visible leaving a noticeable recessed contour between the pearl and the SS triangular support. You can see a lot of differences seeing gen pics but we can classify the gen pearls in two types:

-Gen pearls of big size, almost filling the hollow with small contour. The pearls are almost covering the hollow conical walls. Pearl upper surface come from flat to a bit convex shape. Below pics show this gen pearl type.

 

PAM%20285%20PEARL%20GEN-Type1-%20xxxxx_zpsxlnjjiz8.jpg

GEN PAM 285 BIG PEARL WITH SMALL CONTOUR COVERING THE SUPPORT HOLLOW

 

-Gen pearls of small size that don’t cover the hollow, and leave a big recessed contour around the pearl. These pearls allow seeing the conical walls of the hollow and look very detached from the support. Pearl upper surface come from flat to a bit convex shape. Below pics show this gen pearl type.

 

PAM%20285%20PEARL%20GEN-Type2%20contour%20-%20xxxxx_zpsychzvk0h.jpg

GEN PAM 285 SMALL PEARL WITH BIG AND RECESSED CONTOUR NOT COMPLETELY COVERING THE SUPPORT HOLLOW

 

Rep pearls are, more or less, like the first type: big pearls almost filling the support hollow. Usually rep pearls are filling more the hollow, leaving smaller contours and they usually are flatter than gen pearls, as showed in below pics.

 

PAM%20285%20PEARL%20REP-%20xxxxx_zps8ddubxoa.jpg

REP PAM 285 PEARLS - BIG PEARL ALMOST COVERING THE SUPPORT HOLLOW

 

We can see pearls with contours from little to almost inexistent, and from completely flat to slightly convex

Somehow we can say that rep pearls are accurate in relation to the first type of the gen. The most accurate would be the rep more convex pearls and with the wider contours, as showed in the first pics of above showed. Being the last ones the less accurate of them.

Lume colours is slightly green in gen and rep and it is accurate enough.

 

But the less accurate part of the pearl is the triangular support (as happened in the rep PAM 364 Noob). Gen support has a equilateral triangular shape with clearly curved sides. Rep support has also a triangular shape but only with the upper side curved, lateral sides are completely straight. Besides the upper side is smaller in rep giving to the rep support an isosceles triangle shape (and noticeable appearance) instead of equilateral. Below pics show the difference between gen and rep triangular support. I have placed the gen triangular support contour in orange over the rep support and, in this way, you can clearly notice the differences: smaller upper side and completely straight lateral sides.

 

PAM%20285%20PEARL%20TRIANGLE%20-COMP-xxxxx_zpsl40ikutn.jpg

PAM 285 – PEARL TRIANGULAR SUPPORT DIFFERENCES - GEN - KW-V6Fac COMPARISON

 

Above pic is also valid to prove the accuracy of some rep pearls with small contour and slightly convex upper surface.

At real size and seeing the watch as a whole, pearl differences are not as noticeable as we can see with detailed comparison and enlarged pics. Therefore, pearl accuracy is enough and maker has made a good job

 

CROWN AND CROWN GUARD

Rep crown is accurate but, as always, not as well finished and polished as gen.

Rep Crown Guard is accurate and almost as nicely finished as gen, but gen CG has in general more rounded and softer edges.

Chamfered corners are not made as uniform as gen and present some differences but at real size are accurate enough.

CG lever is made of Titanium like gen and has greyer colours than the CG body. Lever shape and tip are accurate and there are no noticeable differences with the gen.

CG and Crown is a good job from the rep maker.

 

CRYSTAL

Gen is a very thick sapphire of 5,9mm in order to support 2500m of depth with single inner AR coating. Rep crystal has the same appearance as gen, it is sapphire and the AR looks really good. Indeed some people think that rep has double AR. I have not removed the rep crystal and I have not checked the rep AR, but the rep crystal is very similar to the gen and its overall appearance is really good. The date cyclops looks nice and without “frozen” halo.Therefore accurate enough and no worries in this regard

 

DIAL

DIAL SURFACE- No problems whit a black and flat dial. Very accurate

DIAL LAYOUT- Layout is almost perfect without no noticeable flaws, as you can see in below comparison pics.

 

PAM%20285%20DIAL%20COMPARISON-%20xxxx_zpsj5mflkee.jpg

PAM 285 – DIAL AND FRONT VIEW - GEN - KW-V6Fac COMPARISON

 

DOT MARKERS- Rep dots have accurate contour and size, but they look a bit flatter than gen which shows more convex dome. The lume could be a bit greener but few noticeable without side by side comparison.

NUMERAL MARKERS- Rep markers are very accurate. Like in dot markers, the lume could be a bit greener but few noticeable without side by side comparison.

DIAL INSCRIPTIONS- Very accurate in general. No noticeable flaws.

DATE- accurate date window and date fonts

SECONDS SUBDIAL @9- Overall accurate with sharp and clean markers and dots. Maybe a bit less recessed than gen, only noticeable under the loupe.

Therefore the dial is maybe the best part of this watch. Really accurate and well made, very gen-like

 

HANDS AND CANNON PINION

Rep hands have accurate shape but as always they are less flat and uniform than gen, thay have less sharp and defined contours. Gen hands lume is whiter in relation with the markers lume but rep hand lume is the same as in markers. A bit of job for modders.

Rep CP is maybe a bit bigger but few noticeable, perfectly polished, flattened and very gen-like.

PAM%20285%20HANDS%20CP%20comp-%20xxxxx_zpsuoklbvld.jpg

PAM 285 – HANDS AND CANNON PINION - GEN - KW-V6Fac COMPARISON

 

CASEBAK

As we can see in below comparison pics, rep caseback is overall the same as gen a tad less deep engravings but fonts and layout are almost the same. We can see some differences in the fonts of K XXX/250 production number. Very nice job from the maker

 

PAM%20285%20CASEBACK%20COMPARISON%20-%20xxxxx_zpsvutakkhw.jpg

PAM 285 – CASEBACK - GEN - KW-V6Fac COMPARISON

 

MOVEMENT

Gen is a Panerai OP III calibre based in a Valjoux 7750, with PANERAI personalised oscillating rotor and bridges.

Rep movement is based in a rep A7750 with the same gen decoration. As you can see in below pics, the rep decoration looks like the gen, but it is rougher and less nicely made. Golden inscriptions are much less clean and the colour is yellowish instead of golden.

The biggest flaw is a mistake in the lettering because rep says 21 JEWELE instead of 21 JEWELS as showed in the pics

Since the caseback is closed, above details are interesting but not very important regarding accuracy in the hand.

 

PAM%20285%20MOVEMENT%20COMP.-xxxxx-_zpsfrcf7sak.jpg

PAM 285 – MOVEMENT - GEN - KW-V6Fac COMPARISON

 

CONCLUSIONS

KW-V6Fac have made a very good job with this rep.

Leaving aside the lug shape and the support of the pearl, few noticeable under the nuked eye and without a detailed side by side comparison, the rep is almost perfect and made like the gen.

This is one of the best PAM SUB ever repped and we can consider it a new Super rep and a very good choice for a PAM SUB 47mm

 

More info here:

http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=266074 by Very Little Gravitas

https://www.replica-...mp-Good-morning by skapi

 

 

REP links:

https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be

http://www.kuvarsitw...000-movement../

http://puretime01.co...trap-a7750.html

http://www.tswatch.c...45bcb0b8a9.html

http://www.tswatch.c...0f6e2c839e.html

http://www.torobravo...product_id=1985

http://www.intime.co...trap-p9000.html

http://www.ttw8488.c...oducts_id=14383

http://www.pf-818.com/-p-18875.html

 

GEN links:

http://www.panerai.c...op=setTopSearch

http://www.network54...+-+(barryryan7)

http://www.network54...MPARISON..ENJOY!

http://forums.timezo...h=2240727&rid=0

http://www.watchpros...6886&pi=3506806

http://www.network54.com/Forum/611718/thread/1371048992/1/FS-+8+discounted+panerai's+285,+127,+382,+64,+87,+10,+106+and+312+(pthorpe)

http://www.mywatchma...sh-ton-of-pics/

http://www.network54...+all+the+others

http://www.network54...2103590/PAM+285

http://www.chrono24....--id2694092.htm

https://www.watchuwa...ost-edition-ony

http://www.watch-col...Panerai+PAM+285

 

 

 

 

Thanks for reading

 

ALE

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mysterio

Thanks for the detailed review ALE. :)

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Sakurai

^^agreed, many thanks for your fantastic insights into all Pams ALE.

 

I've been looking to add a Submersible to my collection for a while now, and at the moment I'm torn between the 285 and the 364. The 364 is on offer ar PC, but the SS bezel and Ti case of the 285 is a really sweet combo. Decisions, decisions... :)

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mysterio

Get the one you really want. Or get both. :)

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Sakurai
Get the one you really want. Or get both. :)

Lol, that's normally what happens in the end. :)

Might actually be the 087 that draws the long straw this time - either way, the Pam guide of ALE is just a fantastic resource to help choosing.

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