General, controversial thoughts about reps and gens

[By-Tor 0]

You know I'm a genuine rep lover (pun intended). I love my reps. Some of my oldest reps are way over 10 years old and they've been super durable and good watches. I've owned over 100 reps and lots of gens. From cheap Invicta-type shit to relatively expensive items.

 

For me some reps are just something to enjoy tremendously (like my old light-franken SMP Chrono), sometimes they're a path to eventually getting the gen. I owned many reps of the watches that I eventually purchased as gens. I saved a lot of money by getting the reps first. I remember when I got the rep Daytona. After wearing it for a day I realized immediately that it wasn't a watch for me. Of course I do respect it... but boy... what a boring watch it was! :D

 

Best watches to buy as reps are Rolexes. Funny to say that as I own 16610, 16710, 14060 and 16570 gens. Now they're asking $7K for an old 16710. That's laughable. They're not worth that. Don't get me wrong, I love my Rollies... but as watches they're nothing special. They made millions of 16710's. It's not like they're gonna be next red Sea Dwellers, COMEX Subs or Paul Newman Daytonas, ever.

 

And then again... why would you buy a Chinese rep for $500 when the gen costs $1.5K in the preowned market, like Omega Seamaster or TAG Aquaracer? Quartz model even less. Yeah it'd be a quartz but it's also something that you could leave proudly to your son. Building frankens is a great hobby. I totally understand the thrill of building them, sourcing the parts, etc. Ubiquitous did this a lot and boy he built some GREAT frankens. Unfortunately I don't have his skills. But does it really make sense to build a 16800 franken for $3K when the gen can be had for less than $5K?

 

Personally, I don't like the "Batmans" and "Hulks" at all. They do nothing for me. To me they look cheesy... real douchebag watches. Like "tuned up Beemers". IMHO Rolex did to their designs what Jaguar and Porsche did when they changed E-Type to XJS and 993 to 996. They screwed up.

 

Don't get mad... that's just my personal opinion. New fat lugs black SS Submariner is okay and since it has been repped so well, I don't see any reason to buy the gen... for what... 8K? I understand price of $500 in that sense... although that kind of price for a rep would have been outrageous back in the day.

 

Gens have certain details that reps can never have. Like taking a huge macro picture of a genuine Breitling and see how the bracelet sits PERFECTLY between the lugs in 1/10 millimeter tolerances. I've chosen the watches that I buy (as gens) after long consideration. I bought my gen Rollies back in the day because I used to be obsessive about them. But I don't think they're worth the prices they're asking now.

 

But on the other hand some gens are worth every cent. This can be had for $2K in the preowned market. People always said that the "There's no reason to buy the gen as the SFSO rep is just as good". It's not. Not even close. :)

 

[MetalMickey 179]

Excellent piece, and I must concur. I almost went down the franken Datejust route but when a good franken is upwards of £1k, Saving for a used gen just made sense. I can pass it typo the kids, I can sell it easily if I come across hard times and its probably still going to be worth a month's wages in fifty years time.

[By-Tor 0]

But then again I want to say that reps are very good watches (as just watches). All my reps have been extremely durable. A7750 when oiled correctly is an amazing workhorse of a movement. NONE has ever broken on me.

 

Ironically I've had one gen Breitling breaking and one Rolex needing a major service but all my reps have been good. :D Only a few of them had a bit low power reserve.

[Diver Dave 0]

Excellent, and agreed. Right down to the genre of the gauche "hulks" etc... Personally I'd never buy a non-acrylic crystal Rolex (gen or rep) and certainly not one that's colored anything other than black. There is absolutely nothing in the current Rolex catalog that I would buy, no matter how much money I was handed. The Jaguar comparison is a good one. They took understated class and dumbed it down for the masses of idiots who think bigger and flashier is better. Ghetto folk might agree, but a *green* Sub? >puke<.... At least in the old days they quit at diamonds for the gauche.

 

The point you make, and it's an excellent one, is that after handling a load of reps, my Gen Rolexes are now seen as what they are: darned good watches that are worth about $1000. My 1665 Gen that I wore for 38 years is an excellent watch, but it's not a $15k watch.

 

Truthfully, I've learned far more about watches by playing with, disassembling, and customizing my Reps versus buying my Gens and sticking them in the safe save for special occasions. My collection is about 50/50 gen v/s rep. I can't say which one I enjoy more. Investments? I've done well with my gens (been stashing one a year away for about 30 years), and the reps aren't worth shit, but again... It's play money anyway.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Diver Dave

[By-Tor 0]

Indeed Dave.

 

And watch is just a watch. I probably enjoy my reps more. I still get the thrill of getting a great fakery of something expensive... for so cheap. Like that Ebel BTR rep that I just purchased. It's the best f...cking rep ever made. Amazing, amazing quality for a Chinese wonder. Not very accurate rep... but the build quality of the rep... still scratching my head over that one.

 

But guess what... I purchased the gen BTR anyway. :D

[Diver Dave 0]

If anything handling a good rep teaches us what a stupid markup is made with Gens. I can't imagine a nicer watch than a Seagull powered PAM 520 rep, at a whopping $500. I have a gen Panerai that's no better finished or detailed. It's *not* worth $5000....

 

 

[By-Tor 0]

Never been into PAMs but I believe you. I never "got" them. I don't understand the attraction.

 

At least classic Rolexes are like old Mercedes SL's, 911's or E-Type Jags. By today's standards they're nothing special (as cars) but boy do they have "spirit". I totally understand why someone wants a 1680 or 1675 for $5K. But not for $25K... or a classic SL or Jag for $30K... but not for $100K.

 

I think the "modern classic" Rolly prices are not worth that much. In WUS sales forums 16710's were selling for $4K a few years ago.. now they're $7K. That's not justified. There are millions of them around.

[By-Tor 0]

Typical example of a Rolex "modern" design. This looks like a piece of shit. And people in the Rolex forums are praising this. "Aah... what a beatiful watch" and paying what... $25K for this dog turd. Because it's Rolex. :D Some blngy Yacht-Masters are just as horrible.

 

[Davesjourney 27]

Gotta agree with all points on this thread. A good read.

[By-Tor 0]

Boy I wish Neil was still here. He'd LOVE this thread.

 

He could also post a few photos of his gen Breguet Aeronavale full gold chrono after that horrible Yacht-Master II... just to compare what you can get for $25K. :D

[NCRich 13,746]

Tag, $1k watch with a $25 movement. I don't have a gen better than a Timex/Fossil. Pretty sure I never will. But honestly I prefer to play with them than to wear them.

[By-Tor 0]

TAG has cheap shit, agreed. Those quartz models are pretty low.

 

But I have this Aquaracer automatic chrono with ETA 7750 and it's pretty damn nice.

 

 

New Link Chrono is very nice. Aquagraph was great. Monaco is great. Autavia was great. Carrera is nice.

 

They have many desirable models. But yes... cheapest quartz TAG feels cheap next to cheapest quartz Breitling Colt. But I still think the brand gets a bit unfair treatment. That's the closet TAG fan in me talking. :D

[NCRich 13,746]

People like something or they don't. Tastes vary, and they evolve. Otherwise it would get boring quick.

[Genius 281]

I have to disagree with the tag = cheap shit argument.

 

My 10 years old aquaracer is a superbly finished watch granted it has the same movement as my $60 Tissot clone but the finish is another level.

 

That said my Chris Ward is easily on a par (no fuck that it's better than the tag) and half the price of the tag with a sellita auto in it.

 

Then you have hublot probably not finished any better than Chris Ward but at 10x the price with the self same sellita movement.

 

The money is in marketing!!!!

[By-Tor 0]

Yep. You don't have to convince me. I'm a TAG fan.

 

I even reviewed the first rep TAGs (Link and Aquaracer chrono day-date) and dealers sold them a lot because of those writeups. I liked the Aquaracer so much that I purchased the gen. I was going to get a gen Link chrono too (when they introduced the 2x AR). They're amazing.

 

But some Formula-models and those early professional models... hmmm.... :D

[NCRich 13,746]

I have to disagree with the tag = cheap shit argument.

 

My 10 years old aquaracer is a superbly finished watch granted it has the same movement as my $60 Tissot clone but the finish is another level.

 

That said my Chris Ward is easily on a par (no fuck that it's better than the tag) and half the price of the tag with a sellita auto in it.

 

Then you have hublot probably not finished any better than Chris Ward but at 10x the price with the self same sellita movement.

 

The money is in marketing!!!!

 

You contradict your own argument. I like it.

[Diver Dave 0]

Never been into PAMs but I believe you. I never "got" them. I don't understand the attraction.

 

At least classic Rolexes are like old Mercedes SL's, 911's or E-Type Jags. By today's standards they're nothing special (as cars) but boy do they have "spirit". I totally understand why someone wants a 1680 or 1675 for $5K. But not for $25K... or a classic SL or Jag for $30K... but not for $100K.

 

I think the "modern classic" Rolly prices are not worth that much. In WUS sales forums 16710's were selling for $4K a few years ago.. now they're $7K. That's not justified. There are millions of them around.

 

 

If a Rolex has more than 4 numbers in it's model number, it's not of interest to me.

 

Really, having come from using a *real* tool watch (My 1665 was *issued* to me as a Saturation diver, from a pegboard rack of them, where each diver drew his equipment before deployment: I was given the opportunity t buy it when I left the company, and did), I view classic Rolex watches as exactly that: Tools. In Vietnam, the average Joe-Grunt bought a Glycene of Benrus in the exchange for $25bucks. A better watch was a Seiko, at a whopping $60. The next one up was a Zodiac Sea Wolf, which my Dad wore, which was $100. A Tudor sub was $125, and the "real" Sub or GMT was in the $200 range. A Warrant Officer helicopter pilot could buy a GMT with two weeks pay. Ditto a SEAL buying a Sub. These were the uses that these watches built their reputations on, not being worn by effete "desk divers" as a piece of jewelry. So coming myself as an observer of the Vietnam era watch buying habits (growing up in the service gave me as a kid the opportunity to know a shitload of my Dad's colleagues, and trust me: I knew then (and still remember) what watches they all wore). I never even then "got" dress Rolex watches, although I remember LBJ famously wearing a President. I still don't "get" Rolex dress watches, and I never will. Rolex to me = Sub, GMT, and Explorer. All with acrylic crystals.

 

Panerai is a brand, nothing more. There's zero practical difference between a Gen and a Rep. Hey, if you're going to decorate an ETA movement and stick it into a case made by a contractor, with a fancy box made in Taiwan (I dated the woman who sold them the boxes for a while, and they and she are both from Taiwan), you're just another assembler. They prance around testifying about their "heritage", which in effect was a failed design that competed poorly with the Rolex screw down crown patent, made by a compass and instrument company using Rolex movements, which petered out due to lack of demand post WW-II. There's a reason originals are rare: They SUCKED and NOBODY bought them. Today they sell the design de jour to idiots who mostly preen themselves in NYC clubs and hang out in the Hamptons. Man Buns can't be far behind.

 

Heuer post-TAG = utter shit. I was a Heuer AD at one time (running a scuba shop just 5 miles from their NJ headquarters, and had an AD account). Once "modern design", quartz, and TAG got into Heuer they were just another assembler of junk watches. Maybe they are better now, but I'll never buy one. Zero interest.

 

The most interesting watches made today are from China. Seagull movements are superb. They are making world class cases, and will soon be competing globally in the luxury market. Mark my words. They will move from proving their ability by building reps, to selling branded goods that are world class. These people are damned smart.

Edited July 30, 2017 by Diver Dave

[NCRich 13,746]

You know what I'm going to post don't you? The ultimate gen?

[NCRich 13,746]

Ka pow.

 

[By-Tor 0]

Haha that might be rep. Mickey Mouse should have orange sneakers.

[SuperbMonster 4]

You know what I'm going to post don't you? The ultimate gen?

 

So predictible!

[Genius 281]

I have to disagree with the tag = cheap shit argument.

 

My 10 years old aquaracer is a superbly finished watch granted it has the same movement as my $60 Tissot clone but the finish is another level.

 

That said my Chris Ward is easily on a par (no fuck that it's better than the tag) and half the price of the tag with a sellita auto in it.

 

Then you have hublot probably not finished any better than Chris Ward but at 10x the price with the self same sellita movement.

 

The money is in marketing!!!!

 

You contradict your own argument. I like it.

:rofl:

 

Not quite, I agree they are overpriced but definitely not shit

[deju 1,862]

Great post, read it on RWI too as the discussion is interesting.

 

I love my reps and gens equally, the hobby is fun, the chase is great but above all the people are brilliant.

 

And Tag are shit :lmao:

 

 

[By-Tor 0]

Diver Dave: Great post. And I agree about Panerai, Some might say Breitling was the same as they were using just lowly ETA. But damn... my respect for Breitling has grown a lot. These watches actually DO have stunning finish and details. Super Avenger is just pure watch porn... not that I would even wear one. 48mm is just too much. But I wish they haven't taken the B01 route... I didn't quite like those new designs.

 

I'm just 45 so I grew up with the Rolex "luminova era". So I don't feel so strongly about the differences between, say 1675 and 16710. Or 1680 and 16610. They didn't change so dramatically, compared to these new designs anyway.

 

This is the best buy in the preowned market right now, imho. These retailed at $7K when they came out. Everybody loved the design... Inhouse movement (based on Lemania though) and absolutely superb finish. They stopped making these in 2012 and sold rest of the movements to Ulysse Nardin / Breguet or whatever... I got one... for 2K!!!!!!!!! And people pay 20K for ugly, tasteless douchebag shit like YM2. Crazy world indeed.

 

 

 

 

*Disclaimer: Pics are not mine. I'm just waiting for my BTR.

[Genius 281]

Great post, read it on RWI too as the discussion is interesting.

 

I love my reps and gens equally, the hobby is fun, the chase is great but above all the people are brilliant.

 

And Tag are shit :lmao:

 

:finger: