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taifighter

Chronometer in QC shows lower beat rate than what I paid for

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I ordered a 7750 model from lawrencewatch@gmail.com. It is a 28,800 bph movement.

In the QC, he did not send chronometer readings. When I asked for them, he didn't respond until the next day, with a picture

hFybc7h.jpg

that shows 21,600 beats per hour. When I asked, they haven't responded.

Should I be concerned? What do I do? I don't want to pull the trigger so quickly and contact the mods immediately if this is something minor.

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Not minor, as they have sent you a QC pic of a watch that is not the one you ordered.  If it were me, I'd give a mod a heads-up, but not ask for active involvement.  Tell the TD that you're rejecting the watch on the basis that the QC pic shows it's not the watch you ordered.  See what they say.  And please remove the pic, as we shouldn't be posting QC pics on the forum.

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3 minutes ago, NCRich said:

They occasionally forget to reset the machine.  

Surely, that can't be the case.  If the watch was a 28,800 beat, and they set the machine manually to 21,600, the readings would be complete rubbish.  

 If the machine was on auto, they are reading from a 21,600 movement, which is not what was ordered. 

So either they're sending a picture of a different watch, or the watch isn't as ordered.

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6 minutes ago, black263 said:

Surely, that can't be the case.  If the watch was a 28,800 beat, and they set the machine manually to 21,600, the readings would be complete rubbish.  

 If the machine was on auto, they are reading from a 21,600 movement, which is not what was ordered. 

So either they're sending a picture of a different watch, or the watch isn't as ordered.

Oh yeah, it has happened more than a few times.

 

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I have heard that many TD's keep good readings saved for future use. That picture could just be a reused reading that came out well (0 s/d is excellent for am Asian clone), which the TD sends out to anyone who asks for one.

Most likely, because they originally didn't provide you a reading, they never did one, and supplied this "stock" reading picture to make you happy since you asked. 

Personally, I don't care about the reading, as it is a one position quick shot of the movement that in no way reflects how it will actually preform on the wrist. Expect it to fall within the range of a few seconds to minutes a day on average, and know that's the norm for these. If it is exceedingly fast/slow, I would then either contact the TD to arrange sending back for repair, or taking it to a trusted warchsmith to regulate it.

The problem here is that they supplied you with either a stock reading picture they give to everybody who asks, which is not your watch (most likely scenario), or they did in fact get the wrong movement (less likely). Either way, it's something I would clear up with an email to the TD.

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Update, they have responded, but I honestly have no idea what to make of their response:
 
>"Are you trying to say that I'm trying to con you? I saw your mail an hour ago in the middle of the night and I don't like your sound of this, so, I took some pictures of the watch on the timer machine and so open up your watch and you can compare with other td's model.. No need to ask about the 21600, this watch has a high beat 28800. FYI, we don't supply any model other then what we said we will supply."
 
I have no idea what they're trying to tell me... I asked for more clarification but I'm not expecting any better of a response to be honest.

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You have a couple of options as I see it, you can accept it and wait to see what you get. If there's a problem you can raise it then, refer to the points you raised at this stage of the process and ask for a solution, and if not happy can involve a Mod.

Or you can give a Mod a heads up now that you suspect there is an issue and that you plan on asking the TD to reconfirm QC and if required reject the watch for another, or worse case request a refund. If the TD refuses then you can involve the mod who has the heads up already.

This shouldn't really be posted in Scams to be honest, that said I had one dealing with Lawrence and didn't go back for more, take from that what you wish, every experience can be different

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Just ask for clarification. Yes, TDs should be diligent but that's what QC is for -- your own double checking. I wouldn't involve the mods yet because there isn't an issue to be moderated. You've put up a post here which is good because then we can see if there is a history of this occurring. For now, just give them some time and good stuff in checking your QC.

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25 minutes ago, taifighter said:
Update, they have responded, but I honestly have no idea what to make of their response:
 
>"Are you trying to say that I'm trying to con you? I saw your mail an hour ago in the middle of the night and I don't like your sound of this, so, I took some pictures of the watch on the timer machine and so open up your watch and you can compare with other td's model.. No need to ask about the 21600, this watch has a high beat 28800. FYI, we don't supply any model other then what we said we will supply."
 
I have no idea what they're trying to tell me... I asked for more clarification but I'm not expecting any better of a response to be honest.

I'll be blunt. If this was my watch, I would request a refund and go with another TD. Based on the provided picture, the watch has a low beat movement, and with the TD getting openly defensive is just bad business practice. All TD's can source the same pieces, so there is no reason to be unsure of what they are sending you... after all, that's the entire point of the QC process. His attitude alone would make me switch dealers. If someone is this bad before the watch is shipped, imagine how it would be if you received the wrong movement after delivery. 

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24 minutes ago, RepGuy said:

I'll be blunt. If this was my watch, I would request a refund and go with another TD. Based on the provided picture, the watch has a low beat movement, and with the TD getting openly defensive is just bad business practice. All TD's can source the same pieces, so there is no reason to be unsure of what they are sending you... after all, that's the entire point of the QC process. His attitude alone would make me switch dealers. If someone is this bad before the watch is shipped, imagine how it would be if you received the wrong movement after delivery. 

Oh wow, yeah, that's.... I didn't see that. I would move on to another TD *cough, watchfinder... mary, cough*

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Not sure what your email said but the reply is unacceptable to me.  Why are they surprised you have an issue with a high beat watch showing 21,6?  

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Thank you everyone who has given their advice. I will think carefully about what you've said and consider my options. It's just interesting because I went with them due to their reputation here...

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3 hours ago, taifighter said:
Update, they have responded, but I honestly have no idea what to make of their response:
 
>"Are you trying to say that I'm trying to con you? I saw your mail an hour ago in the middle of the night and I don't like your sound of this, so, I took some pictures of the watch on the timer machine and so open up your watch and you can compare with other td's model.. No need to ask about the 21600, this watch has a high beat 28800. FYI, we don't supply any model other then what we said we will supply."
 
I have no idea what they're trying to tell me... I asked for more clarification but I'm not expecting any better of a response to be honest.

It may well be that they have indeed sent you a high beat 28800 watch as you asked.  The confusion is with the timegrapher pic that they sent you.  If they have sent you the correct watch, then they sent you a timegrapher pic from some other random watch.  Easy answer is to check the beat of the watch you get and ensure it's 28800.  Personally, I hate timegrapher in QC.  Some TDs refuse to send them, and I agree with them.  

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The key word in "Trusted Dealer" is "Trusted". 

This situation leads me to a loss of confidence, and in military terms that's a polite way of saying "I know you're lying, because it's when your lips are moving". 

 

The Mods ought to have a little conclave and discuss removal of this dealer from the list. 

 

 

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Without seeing the exchange of emails, it is easy to jump in with both feet here.

However, regardless of whether the buyer was going to receive a 28k or 21k movement, the picture clearly shows 21k. Black is right in saying that if the machine was permanently set to this, the readings would be all over the place. if it was programmed to detect the beat rate, it would just automatically set to 28k and measure. 

If Lawrence was going to send the Hi-beat as stated, he sent a dud QC photo... 

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1 hour ago, Diver Dave said:

The key word in "Trusted Dealer" is "Trusted". 

This situation leads me to a loss of confidence, and in military terms that's a polite way of saying "I know you're lying, because it's when your lips are moving". 

 

The Mods ought to have a little conclave and discuss removal of this dealer from the list. 

 

 

I admit, I keep reading over and over of shady things from these so called Trusted dealers, I cant work out how they get away with it, oh wait, rock and hard place.

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Hopefully further action won't be necessary... I decided I didn't want to take a hit on the transaction fee so I'm going through with it. Likely the dud photo explanation is correct. He apologized profusely for his temper, and while that could've just been fake, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt due to their status here.  I will just await the arrival of the watch in the end. Again, I have read and considered all the comments here, you all have been helpful and given me lots to think about.

Will I have to take it to a watchmaker in order to find out the BPH? And if so, would the watchmaker judge me for bringing in a rep...

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There are a number of apps that can be used for regulation, they're not amazing but they at least should be able to detect the beat rate.  Can't think of them off the top of my head but a quick google should throw up a few results

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There's a few free timergrapher apps available, download one and test it yourself. I've never actually used one myself so I can't comment on their accuracy, but for little or no financial outlay it's definitely worth a shot. I'd guess it'd be able to tell you the beat rate, or at least somewhere near, especially if you're trying to prove its 21600 or 28800 or whatever. 

 

*edit* 

:lol:  seems wriggles had the same idea

Edited by pickledbeetroot

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You can even do it visually.  Get a magifying glass and count the number of times the second hand jumps each second.   It's fairly easy to count out loud the low beat, (6 per second) and although my poor eyes can see the high- beat (8 per second) my brain has trouble counting that fast.

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32 minutes ago, taifighter said:

Subdial seconds, not full dial second hand. That small of a circle, still possible to tell by eye?

I'll try the timegrapher apps as well! Thank you

Sub seconds probably not.  But if you listen to the ticks, and try to count them against another watch with full size running seconds.  I can just about count 1-6, but can't say 1-8 in a second.

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If it is a chrono just start it and you'll see from the chrono big hand!

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