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SA3135 Power Reserve Extremely Poor

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Joyjoyk
17 hours ago, Cdenim said:

Ok just seen your post op.. and the hijackers..lol.  Here we go.... Op you are first, its your post. You have an SA3135 and you have just given it a full wind of 50 turns of the crown winder. You should have, everything working properly, about 35 hours (safely) of unworn, unmoved power on the watch... if it doesn't... there are way too many variables for anyone to diagnose this correctly. Its like someone going to a mechanic shop and saying my radio in my car keeps turning off, why? And we are trying not to have it serviced with a watchsmith correct? Hmmmmm, and this agian is pending the outcome of fully winding it, I can't tell you how many watches with a rep 3135 movement in them i get for low power reserve and it turns out the customer thought 10 or 20 turns on the winder was fully charged main spring. Or they were afraid to go past 25 or something like that. Yes between 40 to 50 some more are needed at the crown winder to get that mainspring fully charged giving the watch its true power reserve.  Again not knowing whats what with the movement we'll say 35hours safely. If it isn't by say like half of that, we got us a problem. Next step.. can you get ahold of, or can you get an app for on your smart phone, or have a computer program for... any kind of WATCH TIMEGRAPHER.... If you can send me or post the results... most importantly, very key to this, what is the watches amplitude??? low power reserve with low amplitude= survicing the movement. Something has accurd, either mishandled during shipping after you purchased. the seller may have dropped it, seemed ok bc they never really paid attention to what was going on with the watch, bottom line something is either out of place, broken, came away from but a service is needed to correct. If nothing has happened to the watch and it shows low power reserve and low amplitude and the watch is fairly new (less than say a year) it can be only one problem... the mainspring is sliding in the barrel. Although they look like the 3135 the quality control is nothing like what we see at Rolex. The barrel has to have a certain amount of braking grease applied on the inside walls before insertion of the mainspring. It essentially allows  the mainspring to stop itself against the barrel wall which then allows it to wind fully pushing against this inner wall spinning it away from the arbor giving the movement power. if the mainspring has nothing or not enough braking grease it won't have enough friction to hold it in place for long and it will slowly slip its footing spinning slightly in the barrel losing its wind and causing about half power reserve. again, can be easily fixed by any watch smith with a service. Lets see where this goes after its full wind...... 

 

the hijacker.... You have an Sh3135 which is going to be different than the op sa. N or noob factory uses SA3135 as its theres and J, AR factories use the Y3135 or yuki watch 3135 movement. It is closer to the gen in its parts closely mimic the ones found in  a Gen caliber 3135. The gritty, sandy, chinsy, metal sound you here when winding is coming from the automatic assembly. One of the reversing wheels (one of the two red ones you see strait away under the engraved bridge and rotor) has had its reduction gear wheel ( the unpainted gear that sits on the center pinion on its backside) slip its teeth and is free spinning while the other one is doing the work for both. the gritty sound is the teeth spinning around under there kind of making contact then breaking contact, making it feel like you could snap something in there at any moment. Easy way to test for this, you have to open the caseback, making sure your hands and area your doing this in are free from any loose dirt or dust.  Lets not complicate things. with it open take you finger and very gently spin the rotor clock wise, should be completely free spinning. no kinks, nothing stopping it from freely turning, observer the driving wheel, (brass gear between the red ones) it has 4 holes. make sure as your spinning the rotor it is turning as well. If nothing binds up spinning clockwise (give it 3 full revolutions) stop and again gently spin anti-clockwise and you will at some point on the spin feel it kink or bind up. this would also indicate which wheel..if it catches something clockwise its the left wheel your right side looking at it strait on, if it snags going anti clockwise its the right one. The bridge has to be removed, and turned over, its hard to see but each wheel has 3 small teeth and you will have to line up the reduction wheels gear to fit inside the 3 teeth. snug everything up and enjoy smooth winding from here on out. IF you can spin the rotor freely both ways.... start crying....lol totally kidding.  The problem is either one or both of  the setting wheels have chude up there teeth on the sliding pinion and will have to be replaced, you can get swiss made (but not gen rolex) which is perfectly fine for this movement and 10000000000000 better than the ones it has stock for about $40. These gears are and have been a common problem with these movements since day one. They copy the gen movement almost to a T..problem is Rolex solved the gear teeth issue by making these tiny, tiny gears out of some vibrainium or some exotic alloy of some super metal they just whipped up like parachrom, The Chinese copy of the teeth is done with something like aluminum foil. Just not going to hold up well. So there you go..... 

 

 

What a Whiz! Thanks!

 

 

 

 

 

t

 

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Cdenim
9 hours ago, Surftime said:

Sooooo informative! Thx @Cdenim!! We are lucky to have such a high level of expertise coupled with a willingness to share your knowledge. Not to mention the effort to write up everything in detail. :Applause:

you my good friend are welcome. hope it helps

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Cdenim
10 hours ago, BlockSize said:

 

Appreciate all the information Cdenim, looks like the watch ran out 3:50AM 2/8/18 so starting at 11:12AM 2/7/18 (stated above) gets us a whopping 16 hours and 38 minutes. I’ll see what I can do about a timegrapher and update when possible.

Edit: inserted pictures from phone app "Watch Tuner" amplitude does look low to my understanding but I don't understand as much as I'd like with this so let me know what you think, thanks.

Also first time inserting pictures, if somethings wrong with it let me know I'll take it down.

https://imgur.com/a/lkmPp

7lKn2JV.png

65x0cBJ.png

Now we can get an idea of whats going on. Not knowing the app we'll assume these values are correct and accurate. So we're loosing power reserve. cut by more than half. Your rate is fine, and your beat error is good as well. your rate being pretty consistent rules out magnetism. and your impulse jewel is striking the pallet almost equal on both sides. My problem comes with, when was second reading taken?? Your beat  error jumps from .03 to a 5.5 mil. Was the test done with the watch in the same position as the first? Meaning crown up, or crown left  or flipping the watch over any? A watchmaker will always start with amplitude. Its the heartbeat of the watch. on a watch with the rate where your's is on the first test and a beat error like you have there, amplitude should be anywhere from 260-310 degrees. But the deviation in beat error is whats making me think possible drop with damage to balance staff or with the shocks either top o r bottom.  Or something has shifted out of place. Or we could just be looking at the barrel not operating correctly. This isn't going to go away on its own and if you like the watch we need to get it looked at and more than likely a service. Where are you located? Best help i can give is offer to look at it for free, if its just a service needed (cleaning, lubrication, regulating) I will help you out and do it for free, just pay shipping both ways.. I'm in united states, chicago. Not sure if that works for you but let me know. I can't really offer any more help until we get a look inside. If you do take me up on it, we can use this post as a running " help guide" for other members with similar issues.

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BlockSize
3 hours ago, Cdenim said:

Now we can get an idea of whats going on. Not knowing the app we'll assume these values are correct and accurate. So we're loosing power reserve. cut by more than half. Your rate is fine, and your beat error is good as well. your rate being pretty consistent rules out magnetism. and your impulse jewel is striking the pallet almost equal on both sides. My problem comes with, when was second reading taken?? Your beat  error jumps from .03 to a 5.5 mil. Was the test done with the watch in the same position as the first? Meaning crown up, or crown left  or flipping the watch over any? A watchmaker will always start with amplitude. Its the heartbeat of the watch. on a watch with the rate where your's is on the first test and a beat error like you have there, amplitude should be anywhere from 260-310 degrees. But the deviation in beat error is whats making me think possible drop with damage to balance staff or with the shocks either top o r bottom.  Or something has shifted out of place. Or we could just be looking at the barrel not operating correctly. This isn't going to go away on its own and if you like the watch we need to get it looked at and more than likely a service. Where are you located? Best help i can give is offer to look at it for free, if its just a service needed (cleaning, lubrication, regulating) I will help you out and do it for free, just pay shipping both ways.. I'm in united states, chicago. Not sure if that works for you but let me know. I can't really offer any more help until we get a look inside. If you do take me up on it, we can use this post as a running " help guide" for other members with similar issues.

Thanks for all the help! The readings were pretty identical but I noticed the beat rate flying all over the place towards the end of the second reading, not sure if that means anything, I appreciate the offer but I’m going to exhaust some local options first and at the least get a decent amplitude reading and if it gets any further or there’s anything drastically different than what I found I’ll report back and keep everyone update. Thanks again hopefully there’s a neat and tidy resolution to all this but don’t want to hold my breath 

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ado213

Second opinion on this,

The power train on the clone 3135 is actually pretty good, the watch fails miserably in the escapement. Its poorly manufactured and executed.

Your beat error variance is more likely than not a loose pallet jewel on the pallet fork. The 3135 has a piss poor escapement on it period !, I've seen so many with poorly set up escapements it defies logic. I'm sure our Chinese friends just through those jewels in and when they land is where they go, not the case for a good escapement. The clone 3135 has adjustable banking on the pallet bridge,  there for a reason, so they can adjust poorly set escapements. You will also notice the back end of the  pallet fork towards the horns are bent upwards towards the impulse jewel slightly. Proving again this is a poorly executed escapement. The escapement being the heart of the watch has to be correct, getting a stable and evenly distributed power source to the escapement is also paramount.

Amplitude, your amplitude is too low at 230 deg. I am presuming these measurements were taken dial up position ?. Now bearing in mind in crown down you may loose between 20-40 deg, your crown down amps, at worst would be around 190 deg. This is not good at all, you loose a great deal of escapement impetus at 190deg or lower, the impulse on the pallet jewel just doesn't happen efficiently and all hell breaks loose. As Cdenim states, your amp on a healthy watch should be 270 - 315 deg.

The hairspring and regulation, another example of poorly dimensioned manufacturing, you will notice the regulator arm on the on the balance cock is not secured correctly to the cock. it does not rotate about its true centre, in other words the regulator arm can move outwards and inwards when being adjusted. This in turn can alter the beat error significantly, so make sure when you adjust you apply slight pressure towards the cock centre when doing so.

The hairspring on these can be poorly centred about the staff, causing large gains or losses in time keeping, dependant on the position. a poorly centred hairspring will not give you good time keeping.

Power reserve. apart from the already mentioned

 A common fault on the SH 3135 is the barrel jewels. remove the barrel bridge, remove the barrel and look for a "witness" mark on the mainplate. I have found on several of these that the jewel height is not set correctly. the barrel itself can "kiss" the mainplate when rotating and leave a very slight "witness" mark on the mainplate. If this is the case the jewels need to be adjusted. This obviously would have a direct bearing on both amplitude and power reserve. The SH 3135 and Yuki take a gen barrel or the aftermarket available from cousins UK.

 

 

 

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Cdenim
Second opinion on this,
The power train on the clone 3135 is actually pretty good, the watch fails miserably in the escapement. Its poorly manufactured and executed.
Your beat error variance is more likely than not a loose pallet jewel on the pallet fork. The 3135 has a piss poor escapement on it period !, I've seen so many with poorly set up escapements it defies logic. I'm sure our Chinese friends just through those jewels in and when they land is where they go, not the case for a good escapement. The clone 3135 has adjustable banking on the pallet bridge,  there for a reason, so they can adjust poorly set escapements. You will also notice the back end of the  pallet fork towards the horns are bent upwards towards the impulse jewel slightly. Proving again this is a poorly executed escapement. The escapement being the heart of the watch has to be correct, getting a stable and evenly distributed power source to the escapement is also paramount.
Amplitude, your amplitude is too low at 230 deg. I am presuming these measurements were taken dial up position ?. Now bearing in mind in crown down you may loose between 20-40 deg, your crown down amps, at worst would be around 190 deg. This is not good at all, you loose a great deal of escapement impetus at 190deg or lower, the impulse on the pallet jewel just doesn't happen efficiently and all hell breaks loose. As Cdenim states, your amp on a healthy watch should be 270 - 315 deg.
The hairspring and regulation, another example of poorly dimensioned manufacturing, you will notice the regulator arm on the on the balance cock is not secured correctly to the cock. it does not rotate about its true centre, in other words the regulator arm can move outwards and inwards when being adjusted. This in turn can alter the beat error significantly, so make sure when you adjust you apply slight pressure towards the cock centre when doing so.
The hairspring on these can be poorly centred about the staff, causing large gains or losses in time keeping, dependant on the position. a poorly centred hairspring will not give you good time keeping.
Power reserve. apart from the already mentioned
 A common fault on the SH 3135 is the barrel jewels. remove the barrel bridge, remove the barrel and look for a "witness" mark on the mainplate. I have found on several of these that the jewel height is not set correctly. the barrel itself can "kiss" the mainplate when rotating and leave a very slight "witness" mark on the mainplate. If this is the case the jewels need to be adjusted. This obviously would have a direct bearing on both amplitude and power reserve. The SH 3135 and Yuki take a gen barrel or the aftermarket available from cousins UK.
 
 
 
And there it is. I have just delt with an sh with a palet issue and the one i had before i went gen, 3 barrel bridges and it still barely made it above 230°. To the OP. As you can tell by this technical smith talk, there isn't anyway to get a clear, concise answer with whats going on in there without a smith breaking it down and inspecting to find the issue. All delt with in a service. The only thing is@ado213, i believe op has an SA as its a noob, not the better of the two, SH you were referencing. Every one always asks the question, "whats the difference"... the gentleman in the last post gave away the biggest difference, the SA has a solid pallet bridge and the SH along with gen have an adjustable banking palet fork. That along with the end shake nuts on the balance, makes the 3135 a very difficult movement to calabrate with alot of reliability as we as watchmakers have servicing data books and bulletins... but for example, those balance nuts, the servicing manual tells you what increment the nuts rotation gives but nothing as far as proper deck height for the staff, or impulse angle to palet fork that has its own adjustable banking.... some of the best, well designed movements world over have all this engineered into there escapement without a need for all the nut adjustors, and banking holes. Making the cal. 3135 a pain in the ass and not all that well liked. There are some who will passionately argue that all that adjustment capability is why its one if the best movements...but thats for another thread. Ahhhh, lets see how Guangzhou copies its replacement. Lol, the SA 3235... I think that covers it. Op, please let us know what the outcome is...

Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk

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BlockSize

Well looks like I picked out a real gem, at least all this information is extremely helpful in my understanding and hopefully some others that pass through, I will make sure to update when possible, thanks again for all the information it is a huge help

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Stufuse

Nice thread, lots of good info. Going to test my SH, as I believe it’s poor also

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

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yogontz

good idea

 

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peppercorn
Well looks like I picked out a real gem, at least all this information is extremely helpful in my understanding and hopefully some others that pass through, I will make sure to update when possible, thanks again for all the information it is a huge help


OP, any updates?

Just found and read this post with interest.
I ordered the Noob 116610 , latest, from TD just before the CNY, haven’t received yet and, well, let’s just say I’m wondering about this movement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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BlockSize
8 hours ago, peppercorn said:

 


OP, any updates?

Just found and read this post with interest.
I ordered the Noob 116610 , latest, from TD just before the CNY, haven’t received yet and, well, let’s just say I’m wondering about this movement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Sorry no updates, I’ve been in a pinch lately and since it keeps on ticking I keep wearing it, there was someone who messaged me about getting his movement repaired, hopefully he’ll get some new info on it. As far as ordering seems to be the consensus the noob 3135 is not the way to go but mines still ticking I suppose just not entirely correctly, depends on how much you value that in a $400+ replica

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