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RolexAddict

THE SWISS ETA MOVEMENTS USED IN REP WATCHES

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alphakazi

life is like a Swiss movement from Asia, ya never know what ya gona get - I'm convinced that they're all genuine parts - mix and match or all new - depends on what's on hand at the factory - I'm sure the majority are mix and match using new and used parts that could be decades old

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houndoggie

I will fully accept this theory if the source of the balance assembly that I believe is Chinese manufactured clone can be demonstrated to be of an established swiss movement maker or movement parts maker.

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KBH

SW200:

 

sw200backuo0.jpg

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KBH

Click here for original Timetechtalk article

 

 

For the past year many new upstart companies have entered the world of watchmaking that rely on forums and TV shopping show to sell their wares.As this growing trend continues a WIS must ask "where are all the eta's coming from" especially since the production of these very sought after movements are booked until 2010 as reported by ETA/Swatch Group? Below are some answers that have come to me from reliable sources over the past year and through research into this growing problem

 

ETA/Swatch Group has been aware of their ebauches ie:an incomplete watch movement consisting of the plates,bridges and wheel train minus the mainspring,balance and escapement or also known as a movement blanks being purchased by watch companies in order to calibrate their own movements and many of these companies are well known and much above board.There were also those who bought them and finished these blanks with Asian parts thus appearing the Asian ETA!....these were sub-standard movements compared to a genuine eta and Swatch Group wanted this stopped so we have the current situation as Swatch Group like any other reputable company did not want their product line polluted by these sub-standard movements giving them a bad name.These movements are not to be mistaken for those made in the once ETA factory in China which has since been closed and it is rumored this factory only assembled their much lower line of G-10's and the like and not their more popular automatic movements.The so called Asian eta came about by these individuals who saw a way to profit off of a good name by completeing the movements with cheaper parts and labor,mind you they looked genuine as the ebauches had all the genuine eta markings from the factory.

 

So today the problem has reached an all time low as the eta market has now been flooded with replica eta movements that have been used in the replica watch industry for years and for the most part all 100% Asian and are likely to be the Hangzhou 6300 which is a clone of the eta 2824 and very hard to distinguish the differnce once they are stamped with the eta markings.These so called eta's are then sold to unsuspecting watch manufacturers as being genuine and then passed on to WIS! They do not come from ETA but from secondary and third sources and in most cases sold directly to the person/company interested in producing a watch.Most of these individuals have entered the watchmaking business with no watch knowledge and truly believe they have found the impossible but there are those who know very well that they have bought either a replica or a non 100% eta due to the price of these movements and knowledge that the marketet has dried up to all but the very large and well known watch manufaturers and Swiss contractors.

 

Below is a post from TZ a year ago and now resurfacing on the forums.It shows a good way to tell a fake or non original eta from the genuine article and should be bookmarked by all WIS as this trend has increased.The talk of the Asian eta 1st surfaced about 5-6 years ago and today it is an epidemic we must all be aware of as many of the new upstart companies are using these 100% Asian replicas or non-100% assembled etas either knowingly or just blinded by shear lack of knowledge and belief they have found the golden egg.Choose your Swiss Made and Swiss movement watches carefully and ask questions before buying as these companies rely on the forums for sales.A safe bet is buying from a company that is reputable and has built strong alliances with their respected manufacturers for example companies building watches through Fricker Co. in Germany or one of the larger Swiss houses who are on the direct ETA list and rely on well known brand names who have been around for years to centuries.Don't be fooled ...know what movement is in your watch and ask these new companies where they are getting their movements from...be an eduacated WIS as watchmaking has reached a new day and we must be prepared.

 

One of the problems was caused by an incorrect length screw protruding through the mainplate and interfering with the balance wheel assembly causing excessive end shake and problems in the keyless works. As the movement had been purchased as 'brand new' it either had come from the factory like it or been worked on previously.

 

However, it turned out that what I had in front of me was a cloned ETA movement or maybe one that had been worked at some stage to become an ETA movement with a blank ébauche and cloned parts… Either way its almost 99% certain this movement did not come from ETA.

 

I’d read about these movement on other forums but had never seen one before, so a little digging about confirmed what I had and that there seems to be more and more of these appearing…they are also not limited to the gilt one shown here but the nickel plated ones are also now appearing.

 

So how do you spot one?

 

What follows is not definative but does tally with the information I've dug up about these movements.

 

From my investigations and from comparing this one to the many ETA 28xx housed watches I have these are some of the points you can use to identify them:

 

 

 

1) Check the ETA logo, the clone is poorly shaped, where the gen is more shaped and clear.

2) Check the Novdiac shock housing, the gen has three cutouts the clone just one.

3) The gen has 25 Jewels engraved on the rotor, the clone either has a sticker or nothing

4) The Barrel is polished on the clone, brushed on the gen.

5) The regulator markings are shallow on the clone with the + hanging on to the edge, on the gen they are deeper and clearly etched.

 

In more detail on three of the above: (pictures missing because of cut and paste. click link above)

 

Clone logo:

 

 

 

Gen logo:

 

 

 

Clone shock housing:

 

 

 

Gen shock housing:

 

 

 

Clone regulator markings:

 

 

 

Gen regulator markings:

 

 

 

 

 

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RolexAddict
I think Robert would be able to shed some light on RA's assumptions...

 

try to be a little curious, enjoy life being more actor than spectator :) desassemble a ETA movement and observe the mixt of rusty and clean parts. Especially the 7 parts (dw inclued) used for the date change.

 

Now, I didnt say NO CLONES, I said I am not convinced by the literature sprayed on rep watch boards about "genuine Swiss ETA and Chinese ETA. It should be proved than this or that part is made in China, and more details, witch factory produce parts under ETA ébauches specifications

Nobody can prouve anything.

 

So at this level of discussion, we could also say genuine Swiss ETA are made in China -but we don't know the name of the factory-, like genuine American Ralph lauren shirts are made in Malaysia and China. Or the genuine American B787 Dreamliner has wings made in Japan by Fuji & Kawasaki Heavy Industry :ninja:

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trailboss99

Very interesting post RA. Great work :)

I can't wait for the rest of the series. Thatk you very much for the effort involved.

 

There are ETA clones made in China but as for ones stamped ETA who knows? The clones made by HZ and Sea-Gull are NOT branded ETA but carry their own branding. The Sea-Gull one is a direct clone while the HZ differs in the rotor clutch using a method that is better than that used by ETA simmerlar to that of the Shanghai 3L A7750. The point here is that as I stated neither of these rather good MVTs are stamped ETA so RA may indeed be on to something here.

 

 

 

Col.

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sconehead
I think Robert would be able to shed some light on RA's assumptions...

 

try to be a little curious, enjoy life being more actor than spectator :D

 

You mean something like this perhaps? :D

 

07082009183.jpg

 

07082009184.jpg

 

07082009185.jpg

 

...don't mention that 'Scottish play'... ;)

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KBH

Hey Scone, I did that too. Then after trying to put it back together I ended up throwing it all away. :D :D ;)

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alphakazi
Hey Scone, I did that too. Then after trying to put it back together I ended up throwing it all away. :D;):frusty:

:D

So that's what I have to look forward to

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sconehead

It's easy peasy with the TZ lessons, just remember if you're putting a 2836-2 back together using their tuto's that they left out the hacking lever paragraph...

 

First time I serviced a 2836 I was left with a little brass lever and had to start all over again... :D

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RolexAddict

Who is Robert ?

 

sconehead, :notworthy:

 

Now we have the sconehead Jocker :D

 

he uses the perfect tools and storage units, - note: I store my parts in saved plastic bottle caps - I told you, I am a tourist, we have lot of gurus on all these boards, but ask them something consistant, the answers are very evasive, exept for the Sub ans SD pearl masturbation.

 

the sconehead follows TZ classes, and know the trick of the stop second lever on the ETA's line, this is a big secret and difficult step: the hack lever on the 2836.... I am impressed :notworthy:

 

:D

 

The picture of this infamous part. Sold by Ofrei. Infamous American dealer who sell Americano-Chinese-Swiss ETA parts, I will call Obama and tell him that Chinese print poor-inconsistant ETA on movement plates, and this disturb fake watches forum members ;)

lever9433image2.jpg

 

The hack lever... This is a very difficult step guys, beware. But our sconehead fake-watch-board-hero will add his Science if I fall in my future interventions... about the stop seconds mystic

 

o.k, just my 2 cents,

 

But believe me, I have accounts on all fake boards, the next time I read "I sold my watch with a genuine ETA inside" the dealer will have to argue with me, as I will destroy the sale just for the sport :frusty:

 

 

NEXT PLEASE !

I mean gurus :lol:

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sconehead

Ruffled feathers RA? Who knows, one day, if I study my TZ lessons real hard, I might reach your lofty heights, but sadly it's just hobby to me, I just share anything I find out...it's a forum thing...

 

Know anything about indents in novodiac shock assemblies, some have one whilst they're supposed to have three aren't they? Correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to have all the answers...

 

By the way, Robert is a straight talking dealer/wholesaler on the boards who could probably confirm as to if this clone issue is bunkum or not...just a thought.

 

Glad I gave you something to get on your soapbox about, have a nice night... :)

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RolexAddict
Ruffled feathers RA? Who knows, one day, if I study my TZ lessons real hard, I might reach your lofty heights, but sadly it's just hobby to me, I just share anything I find out...it's a forum thing...

 

Know anything about indents in novodiac shock assemblies, some have one whilst they're supposed to have three aren't they? Correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to have all the answers...

 

By the way, Robert is a straight talking dealer/wholesaler on the boards who could probably confirm as to if this clone issue is bunkum or not...just a thought.

 

Glad I gave you something to get on your soapbox about, have a nice night... :D

 

Oh yes dude, I am upset, I didn't sleep last night Mister the First One of the Class,

 

continue to recite your lessons, to justify your knowledge, feed me with infos, I take notes, this helps.

And next time you post pics, please write your name on your workbench just to make sure is not copy&paste from another board, we have specialists here

 

Sounds like you know everything better than others, so why dispatch your knowledge with economy ? Only reserved for a certain Elite Club ? if ou are enthousiast you share even with noobs

 

And why you don't write a complete tuto about this movement ? sounds like you use the perfect tools and you have the pedagogy, you know this board is young and need stuff and new blud.

 

This is not the first time you adopt that kind of two-faced.... attitude staying behind the curtain and come in with donor of lessons comments,

 

Say hello to Robert-The-Guru-Middleman and all your friends on all boards, and tell them to find the name of Chinese factories, the adress and the reason why Chinese stamp ETA on non-ETA plates. :D

 

And please stay away from my next posts and assumptions, ;)

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sconehead
Ruffled feathers RA? Who knows, one day, if I study my TZ lessons real hard, I might reach your lofty heights, but sadly it's just hobby to me, I just share anything I find out...it's a forum thing...

 

Know anything about indents in novodiac shock assemblies, some have one whilst they're supposed to have three aren't they? Correct me if I'm wrong, you seem to have all the answers...

 

By the way, Robert is a straight talking dealer/wholesaler on the boards who could probably confirm as to if this clone issue is bunkum or not...just a thought.

 

Glad I gave you something to get on your soapbox about, have a nice night... ;)

 

Oh yes dude, I am upset, I didn't sleep last night Mister the First One of the Class,

 

continue to recite your lessons, to justify your knowledge, feed me with infos, I take notes, this helps.

And next time you post pics, please write your name on your workbench just to make sure is not copy&paste from another board, we have specialists here

 

Sounds like you know everything better than others, so why dispatch your knowledge with economy ? Only reserved for a certain Elite Club ? if ou are enthousiast you share even with noobs

 

And why you don't write a complete tuto about this movement ? sounds like you use the perfect tools and you have the pedagogy, you know this board is young and need stuff and new blud.

 

This is not the first time you adopt that kind of two-faced.... attitude staying behind the curtain and come in with donor of lessons comments,

 

Say hello to Robert-The-Guru-Middleman and all your friends on all boards, and tell them to find the name of Chinese factories, the adress and the reason why Chinese stamp ETA on non-ETA plates. :huh:

 

And please stay away from my next posts and assumptions, ;)

In a word, no... I won't...I participate on this forum, if I have something to add, I will.

 

Your words, ''We have to re-build this board, we will do it.

No problem, only solutions.''

 

By adding my comments/views and the other members doing the same we are in fact, re-building this board. Participation is what will rebuild this board, so don't ever tell me not to...

 

Robert (or PWC), had already commented that his watchmaker couldn't discern a gen ETA from a clone, I missed his post, so Robert can't help us on that front (I thought he may have been able to.)

 

All this is, IMO about you getting into a tizzy because of my reply to your 'actor/spectator' comment.

 

I posted a pic of the current 2836-2 I'm working on to let you know that I too, am an 'actor' not a 'spectator' as you so wrongly assumed.

 

Somebody then posts that they couldn't get their 2836-2 back together, to which I replied that with the TZ lesson tutorial that it's not that hard, but made people aware that the hacking lever isn't mentioned in the re-assembly steps.

 

You then get on your high horse about hacking levers and gurus for some inane reason, I work on my own watches for fun, I'm a self-taught amateur with lot's to learn, but hey, at least I know it.

 

Regarding my 'perfect tools', I had a bit of extra cash one week which enabled me to buy the movement storage jar, cost about 2 euros... a tidy sum I know, I thought I'd treat myself... :Whistle:

 

I then, in a moment of weakness (I'm normally much better than that) replied to your 'guru/sconehead joker' post in a pedantic manner.

 

That about caps it all I think... Correct me if I've told any untruths...I forgive you this time,

I'll put it down to the French sense of humor and maybe the language barrier...

 

Peace, Bobby... ;)

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RolexAddict

sconehead, please, forget me, I will forget you, no problem,

:huh:

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sconehead
sconehead, please, forget me, I will forget you, no problem,

:Whistle:

You've been writing that since 9.09pm?

Apology accepted... :huh:

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RolexAddict

about time spent on boards,

 

you should read more about network systems and tabs on internet navigators, I mean surfing on many websites/boards at the same time :D

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sconehead

Crossed lines RA, that's all it was, nothing more...:Hug:

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JoeyB
about time spent on boards,

 

you should read more about network systems and tabs on internet navigators, I mean surfing on many websites/boards at the same time :D

 

RA, you might have missed my question, or I mised your answer. I paste it again. I want your opinion.

=========================

 

RA, OUTSTANDING job! Well Done!!

 

Just to make certain I understand correctly, a specific comparison:

 

From Perfect Clones;

 

RLGS01002 SS Anni GMT SS Black Swiss Eta 2836 GMT Hand Ind Ad 8.jpg

 

~and~

 

RLGS01003 SS Anni GMT SS Black Asia Eta 2836 GMT Hand Ind Adj 7.jpg

 

 

 

are both genuine ETA 2836 movements, either assembled from genuine parts or a genuine whole assembly?

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JoeyB
about time spent on boards,

 

you should read more about network systems and tabs on internet navigators, I mean surfing on many websites/boards at the same time :D

 

RA, you might have missed my question, or I mised your answer. I paste it again. I want your opinion.

=========================

 

RA, OUTSTANDING job! Well Done!!

 

Just to make certain I understand correctly, a specific comparison:

 

From Perfect Clones;

 

RLGS01002 SS Anni GMT SS Black Swiss Eta 2836 GMT Hand Ind Ad 8.jpg

 

~and~

 

RLGS01003 SS Anni GMT SS Black Asia Eta 2836 GMT Hand Ind Adj 7.jpg

 

 

 

are both genuine ETA 2836 movements, either assembled from genuine parts or a genuine whole assembly?

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KinCaidk

RA.

 

WOW.... Just WOW!! Great work.

 

Thank you!

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sconehead

@Joey... :D

 

clichedoublepost.jpg

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JoeyB
@Joey... :morebeer:

 

clichedoublepost.jpg

 

Hey sconey - cat_hang.gif

 

 

about time spent on boards,

 

you should read more about network systems and tabs on internet navigators, I mean surfing on many websites/boards at the same time :wub:

 

 

 

RA, you might have missed my question, or I mised your answer. I paste it again. I want your opinion.

=========================

 

RA, OUTSTANDING job! Well Done!!

 

Just to make certain I understand correctly, a specific comparison:

 

From Perfect Clones;

 

RLGS01002 SS Anni GMT SS Black Swiss Eta 2836 GMT Hand Ind Ad 8.jpg

 

~and~

 

RLGS01003 SS Anni GMT SS Black Asia Eta 2836 GMT Hand Ind Adj 7.jpg

 

 

 

are both genuine ETA 2836 movements, either assembled from genuine parts or a genuine whole assembly?

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RolexAddict

sconehead Posted Aug 12 2009, 08:42 PM

Crossed lines RA, that's all it was, nothing more...

 

;):wub:

 

 

 

JoeyB, let me the time to read everything, I just came back from a short trip, so I have to dive again into the forum

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JoeyB
sconehead Posted Aug 12 2009, 08:42 PM

Crossed lines RA, that's all it was, nothing more...

 

:morebeer::thumbsup2:

 

 

 

JoeyB, let me the time to read everything, I just came back from a short trip, so I have to dive again into the forum

No problem. I just want to make sure I get it right. Thanks!

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