BigDee62 0 Posted October 22, 2012 Thought I'd share the following info I picked up from a variety of sources (including RWG posts) - a high-level pictoral overview of some currently popular tourbillon movements used in Chineses reps. Looking forward to feedback and hoping this is of use to folks. These tourbillon movements are divided into two groups - the Blancpain Flying Carrousel Type, and the Breguet Coaxial Type. You'll be able to distinguish between the two types from reviewing the text and pics below. From there, if you have a Chinese rep'd tourby, there's a reasonable chance you're looking at one of the 2 or 3 movements listed in the relevant sub-section. Table of Contents Flying Tourbillon Blancpain Flying Carrousel Type - Tianjin (Sea-Gull) ST80 - Liaoning (Million Smart) 5010 Breguet Coaxial Type - Shanghai Classic - Hangzhou (PTS) FD3310 - Guangzhou/GuangDong (Dixmont) DG8101 Flying Tourbillon - This describes a tourbillon carriage that is supported only at the back so that from the dial side it appears to be floating with no visible means of support. The lack of a bridge on the dial side also helps reduce the height of the tourbillon sub-assembly. Of the five movements listed below, the Shanghai usually has a bridge (that is, it is not "flying"). Note, however, that sometimes a normally "flying" type movement may have a bridge attached for purely decorative reasons - this is seen with some Liaoning movements - so the presence of a bridge does not always indicate a Shanghai movement. Blancpain Flying Carrousel Type This describes the Blancpain model in which the axis of the balance is offset from the axis of the tourbillon carriage, giving the tourbillon a "carrousel-like" appearance and reducing the overall height of the tourbillon. If examining a Flying Carrousel rep, look for the four decorative screws of the Liaoning movement; if you don't see those, then you may be looking at an ST80 movement. Tianjin (Sea-Gull) ST80 Tourbillon (Blancpain Flying Carrousel Type) - Relatively high price and quality; may be the best Chineses copy of the Blancpain design - 42 hour power reserve - Usually handwound (autowinding available but quite rare and even more expensive) Liaoning (Million Smart) 5010 Tourbillon (Blancpain Flying Carrousel Type) - Higher production and lower price - Recognized by the four (4) decorative screws - Considered less attractive, with reliability issues periodically reported - Used in British Horological Institute's anniversary watches, as well as Cecil Purnell watches (although they publicly claim to be 100% Swiss) Breguet Coaxial Type This describes the Breguet model of a large balance-wheel on a common axis to the tourbillon cage. If examining a Coaxial rep, a) Is there a bridge across the movement? Then it may be a Shanghai movement b) Are the hour and minute hands pushed up from the center of the face? Then it may be a Guangzhou movement c) If there is no bridge, and the hour and minute hands are centrally mounted or only very slightly pushed up, then it may be a Hangzhou movement Shanghai Classic Tourbillon (Breguet Coaxial Type) - Relatively high price and quality; decent Chinese copy of the Breguet design - Usually "non-flying" with bridge across the watch face - 63 hour power reserve - Considered an attractive movement - Popular in Breguet reps Hangzhou (PTS) FD3310 Tourbillon (Breguet Coaxial Type) - Higher production and lower price - 40 hour power reserve (60 hours available on the more expensive FD3900 movement) - Some say it's reliable, some say otherwise - Considered an attractive movement - Commonly modified in a wide range of reps including JLC and Hublot among others Guangzhou/GuangDong (Dixmont) DG8101 Tourbillon (Breguet Coaxial Type) - Lower price and high production - Autowinding - Some consider it awkward because the hour and minute hands are usually off-center (pushed upward) on the dial Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ad6904 0 Posted October 22, 2012 Amazing effort into this post mate. Thanks for the info, I've always found tourbies mesmerizing Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dalboy 2 Posted October 22, 2012 Someone's been busy..very informative post..well done.. Dal.......... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Member X 91 Posted October 22, 2012 Nice summary Worth a sticky, Mod-like people?? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Corv99 2 Posted October 22, 2012 Great thread! Thanks for posting Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KeNnY 29 Posted October 22, 2012 should be sticky, as I want to buy in near future some Tourby watch and this is the kind of post I was looking for for the reliability and price and quality comparison ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigDee62 0 Posted October 22, 2012 Hangzhou 3301 Is that Hangzhou 3301 is a typo? I can't find anything about it, although I know there have been several other Hangzhou tourbillons ... - The FD3032 was their first - The FD3091 more recently predated the FD3310 - The FD3900, is contemporary with the FD3310, costs more and usually includes a sun/moonphase at 3 O'Clock I also consciously left out - Beijing tourbillons (many models) which are less common in reps due to rather high cost (and quality) - The Tianjin ST82, a coaxial which is less common than the carrousel type ST80 - Conversely, the Guangzhou DG8000, a carrousel type which is less common than the coaxial DG8101 - The Tianjin ST84, a rather small Chinese tourbillon, perhaps the one used in the IWC that has a small tourby at 12 O'Clock - Various flavors of the ST80 line - many variations Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greg_r 81 Posted October 22, 2012 Here, have a sticky... great post! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KeNnY 29 Posted October 22, 2012 Hangzhou 3301 Is that Hangzhou 3301 is a typo? I can't find anything about it, although I know there have been several other Hangzhou tourbillons ... - The FD3032 was their first - The FD3091 more recently predated the FD3310 - The FD3900, is contemporary with the FD3310, costs more and usually includes a sun/moonphase at 3 O'Clock I also consciously left out - Beijing tourbillons (many models) which are less common in reps due to rather high cost (and quality) - The Tianjin ST82, a coaxial which is less common than the carrousel type ST80 - Conversely, the Guangzhou DG8000, a carrousel type which is less common than the coaxial DG8101 - The Tianjin ST84, a rather small Chinese tourbillon, perhaps the one used in the IWC that has a small tourby at 12 O'Clock - Various flavors of the ST80 line - many variations I found that on youtube, so could be that guy on youtube be wrong. But should be the same like you posted Hangzhou (PTS) FD3310 Tourbillon (Breguet Coaxial Type) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigDee62 0 Posted October 22, 2012 Here, have a sticky... great post! I am honored! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigDee62 0 Posted October 22, 2012 I found that on youtube, so could be that guy on youtube be wrong. But should be the same like you posted Hangzhou (PTS) FD3310 Tourbillon (Breguet Coaxial Type) I found a lot variations of the Hangzhou, it seems to get customized a great deal, much more than any other tourby. I like the version in that youtube you found, we've seen that in the JLC tourbies, so maybe the JLC pic I included should've shown that variant for contrast. Then on the other hand, the Hublot version looks quite a bit different at first glance. I think the functional bits are the same across all the variants, although this might require some more scrutiny because of the wide variation on these HZ-type tourbies. These might actually be a few different movements. (last couple sentences edited - not sure here, should get researched) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KeNnY 29 Posted October 22, 2012 I found that on youtube, so could be that guy on youtube be wrong. But should be the same like you posted Hangzhou (PTS) FD3310 Tourbillon (Breguet Coaxial Type) I found a lot variations of the Hangzhou, it seems to get customized a great deal, much more than any other tourby. I like the version in that youtube you found, we've seen that in the JLC tourbies, so maybe the JLC pic I included should've shown that variant for contrast. Then on the other hand, the Hublot version looks quite a bit different at first glance. But across all the variants, the functional bits are the same. yes mate, I agree with you , and this is the JLC rep I would like to have with this movement, I think it is the best and luxury looking what you can get Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
honeybear 0 Posted November 29, 2012 I found that on youtube, so could be that guy on youtube be wrong. But should be the same like you posted Hangzhou (PTS) FD3310 Tourbillon (Breguet Coaxial Type) I found a lot variations of the Hangzhou, it seems to get customized a great deal, much more than any other tourby. I like the version in that youtube you found, we've seen that in the JLC tourbies, so maybe the JLC pic I included should've shown that variant for contrast. Then on the other hand, the Hublot version looks quite a bit different at first glance. But across all the variants, the functional bits are the same. yes mate, I agree with you , and this is the JLC rep I would like to have with this movement, I think it is the best and luxury looking what you can get Some photos of mine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
honeybear 0 Posted November 29, 2012 Also, these are photos of the Seagull ST8260, which is the only co-axial tourbillon movement from Seagull that I'm aware of. I haven't seen any reps that use this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigDee62 0 Posted November 30, 2012 Right - not used in reps due to the exorbitant price (or so I read) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigDee62 0 Posted November 30, 2012 Also, these are photos of the Seagull ST8260, which is the only co-axial tourbillon movement from Seagull that I'm aware of. I haven't seen any reps that use this. You sure that's the Seagull? It looks EXACTLY the same as the Hangzhou 3310. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
honeybear 0 Posted December 1, 2012 (edited) You sure that's the Seagull? It looks EXACTLY the same as the Hangzhou 3310. Yes, I'm certain. The canon pinon on the Seagull is centered, and the one on the Hangzhou is offset slightly to the top. This is also noticeable from the back by looking at the position of the associated jewel. Looking at the back, the click springs are in different locations, and there is an additional gear in the HZ 3310. Also, look at the attachment pins for the hairspring, and the gear that drives the tourbillon cage is much less prominent in the Seagull. See the attached photos for what I'm referring to. Edited December 1, 2012 by honeybear Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
honeybear 0 Posted December 1, 2012 (edited) A while back, I posted some information about chinese tourbillon movements that I received from Alex at Perpetual Watch on RWI. I am reproducing it here. A good source of photos of the various chinese tourbillon movements is: http://www.minnor.com/ in particular they sort their watches by the movement manufacturer. I find that another way to distinguish movements is by their gear arrangement on the back. Alex Lee at Perpetual Watch is highly regarded on the chinese mechanical forum at Watchuseek, and makes some wonderfully crafted watches which use various chinese tourbillon movements. If you're looking for a good quality and reliable non-replica tourbillon, he has my recommendation. http://www.perpetual-watch.com/ In any case, he has done a comparison study of the various tourbillon movements which are available, and I wanted to share this with the other forum members. What follows is due to Alex: I am a Blancpain fan right from the beginning, my collection wouldn't be possible without its influence. Blancpain created the Carrousel-Tourbillon in the late 90's and I have loved it ever since. I was always curious why 9 out of 10 (10 out of 10 most of the time) of watch lovers would prefer the Breguet's coaxial Tourbillon over the Carrousel-Tourbillon. Blancpain adapted its Tourbillon from the original carrousel construction for its more visible display of the escapement instead of being underneath the balance wheel as in Breguet type. The Carrousel-Tourbillon also can achieve with a thinner movement thickness because the escapement is in line with the balance wheel. When I finally made my own Tourbillon collection, my first Tourbillon had to be the Carrousel-Tourbillon employing the TianJin’s ST8000 caliber. Then later I introduced the automatic Tourbillon DG8101 into my collection, something happened to me almost seemingly without a trace, I was miraculously getting attracted by the coaxial Tourbillon, the more I looked at it, the more I was captured by it. Since the Carrousel-Tourbillon’s balance wheel is smaller than the one used in coaxial type, the coaxial Tourbillon’s bigger balance wheel in fact is much more impressive to be looked at. In addition, the flying Tourbillon is relatively more vulnerable to be damaged by accidental impacts while the coaxial type is very solid being mounted on the same main pinion. Try log onto my website and go to the VIDEO webpage, do yourself a favor, watch both ST8000 & DG8101 & the recent added SH F-8’s videos at least 3-5 times, you might experience what I had experienced and might join the others as a Breguet's coaxial type Tourbillon fan too. The anatomy on all Chinese Tourbillons HangZhou HZ (PTS) Tourbillon FD3091 series, the carriage is not very attractive, like a pigeon, and their new FD3900 is coaxial, manual winding and off-center hands display, the beating rate of 28’800 bph, not 21’600 bph. I do have a problem with the day/night display, very ridiculous for any Tourbillon I must say. HZ FD3091 HZ FD3900 ShangHai SH Tourbillon, I like its display of seconds hand on top of the carriage, its hands are center-axis & manual winding. One of the most expensive Tourbillons since every makers had a drastic 60% reduction 2 years ago but not Shanghai. The movement back is not very impressive, too simple. The SH had already successfully made an Orbital Tourbillon and the Double Tourbillon, the Triple Tourbillon is on its way. My latest automatic Tourbillon AT series featuring the newest SH F-8 movement, by far the best Chinese Tourbillon in terms of the Tourbillon type, beating rate, with power reserve & day-date features added, and most of all, the SH F-8 ‘s price is now more approachable than its manual predecessor. LiaoNing LN Tourbillon as shown in the BHI ‘s pic, The first generation Chinese Tourbillon, has been flooding the market ever since. Personally I think it's the worst. The carriage looks like a freak, it is manual winding, center-axis hands display and very inexpensive, the BHI (British Horological Institute) Tourbillon is selling it at less than 400 pounds on the web. BeiJing BJ Tourbillon, the carriage looks real odd as well as the back, it is center-axis hands display and manual winding, the price is as expensive as the SH since both had avoided the Tourbillon movement’s price war which led to a massive price cuts. Many experts view the BJ & SH are much better than the others, I suspect mostly because of their high prices, but I personally think they are not that far better than the rest. The BJ has proven its supremacy achieving making the first Chinese Minute Repeater Tourbillon and most recently the bi-axial 3D Tourbillon as well. TianJin ST Tourbillon series is certainly one of the best, also the price is very attractive, but not their branded watches seagull , way over-priced I must say. The ST8000 is very reliable according to my over 3 years’ personal experience, both by using & wearing it. The movement back is the most impressive one among all the others. Although the new automatic ST8000 is available, ST8002ZG is in fact ST8000 with an additional rotor for self-winding, now seagull is only selling this caliber with the 18-carat gold models only, the stainless steel model won't be available any time soon. On the other hand, the ST8000 offers an attractive price, although off-center hands display, but with my improper-proportioned hands, you might not notice it at all. The advantage of manual winding is, no obstruction to view the carriage from the back, automatic rotor will always get in the way at 6 o'clock position, in fact, all major prestigious Swiss Tourbillons are manual winding. An update on seagull, they have now included a coaxial Tourbillon in their collection, again available in precious metal models only. Recently I have introduced another seagull Tourbillon caliber ST8001 with added Power Reserve & Date, the movement costs 2/3 more than ST8000. Personally I would prefer ST8000, again for the same reason, the Tourbillon carriage is the major attraction and should be left alone. GuangDong DG Tourbillon, it was previously employed in my automatic Tourbillon series, the first ever Chinese made automatic Tourbillon, currently the only automatic coaxial Chinese Tourbillon has registered a patent in Switzerland. The DG8101 is a typical Breguet coaxial type and is often called center Tourbillon. 8 out of 10 watch lovers will prefer it over the Carrousel-Tourbillon. You are likely to find a similar DG8101 Tourbillon movement by other brands with added day-date displays (DG8000). Since DG8101 is off-center hands display, with added day-date subdials on top, from an aesthetic point of view, I find it very awkward, the Tourbillon’s carriage is the ultimate major attraction and should be left alone. We had stopped employed this caliber from our collection ever since the ShangHai F-8 AT Tourbillons were introduced in earlier 2010. Edited December 1, 2012 by honeybear Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zorrog 0 Posted February 19, 2013 I found that on youtube, so could be that guy on youtube be wrong. But should be the same like you posted Hangzhou (PTS) FD3310 Tourbillon (Breguet Coaxial Type) I found a lot variations of the Hangzhou, it seems to get customized a great deal, much more than any other tourby. I like the version in that youtube you found, we've seen that in the JLC tourbies, so maybe the JLC pic I included should've shown that variant for contrast. Then on the other hand, the Hublot version looks quite a bit different at first glance. But across all the variants, the functional bits are the same. yes mate, I agree with you , and this is the JLC rep I would like to have with this movement, I think it is the best and luxury looking what you can get Some photos of mine. Where does one acquire this piece? Looks absolutely incredible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luthier 1 Posted February 19, 2013 Directly from the factories only, but they have Minimum Order Quantity. And it's hundreds of movements. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
solkryssare 109 Posted February 19, 2013 I found that on youtube, so could be that guy on youtube be wrong. But should be the same like you posted Hangzhou (PTS) FD3310 Tourbillon (Breguet Coaxial Type) I found a lot variations of the Hangzhou, it seems to get customized a great deal, much more than any other tourby. I like the version in that youtube you found, we've seen that in the JLC tourbies, so maybe the JLC pic I included should've shown that variant for contrast. Then on the other hand, the Hublot version looks quite a bit different at first glance. But across all the variants, the functional bits are the same. yes mate, I agree with you , and this is the JLC rep I would like to have with this movement, I think it is the best and luxury looking what you can get Some photos of mine. Where does one acquire this piece? Looks absolutely incredible. PM a dealer with that pic and they'll find it for you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bgreg 0 Posted August 9, 2013 Does anybody know which tourbillion this is? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
zamoh 0 Posted September 30, 2013 hi I am new here where can I buy the JLC? thank you Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MrX 0 Posted October 22, 2013 Never really been interested in the tourbillion until 2 minutes ago.... going to be an expensive month! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites