PolonusTM 0 Posted May 12, 2015 (edited) This is small review of KW/V6F version of famous yet-not-released PAM 616 CARBOTECH. KW/V6F called it V2 version since they counted the one made from casted carbon fibres as V1. I got mine from Joshua / Perfect Clones and this is exactly the watch maker sent to dealers since my QC photos are of the very same watch as to be found on pages of Perfect Clones / Trusty Time and TS Watch International… interesting fact on it's own. Gen says hello: The main difficulty with this application was to replicate carbon fibre based material used for case set. Let me quote fragment of one of reviews of genuine 616: "(...)Carbotech is used to make the case, the rotating bezel and the lever bridge which protects the winding crown; the composite was designed to enhance both the aesthetics and the performance of the material. To form the plates of Carbotech from which these components are made, thin sheets of carbon fibers are compressed at a controlled temperature under high pressure together with a high-end polymer, PEEK (Polyether Ether Ketone), binding the composite material and making it even stronger and more durable. The carbon fibres used are very long to ensure great aesthetic uniformity; the sheets are superimposed and pressed together in such a way that the fibres of each layer are set at a different angle to the ones above and below it. This produces a stripped matte black appearance which varies according to the cut of the material, resulting in each watch being truly unique.(...)" Carbon fibre straps are applied into a mould, layer by layer, with each layer rotated a bit and then compressed. Due to carbon fibre ability to reflect light, we can observe semi-shiny parts, depending on direction light comes from. Despite the V6F/KW maker went great lengths to rep it nicely, some areas appear hard to replicate. Let's take a look at some of them: BEZEL Bezel is an end-level boss from video games of 80's replica maker tried to beat up but the winner is still a boss. Short list of details: - bezel dots (5,10,20,25,35,40,50,55) should almost not protrude over the surface of a bezel. This replication was based on maker's knowledge about PAM 508 where they were protruding. Very minor detail, anyway. - 15, 30 & 45 indicators have gold paint - which is correct as per gen - 15 minute grooves on a bezel have CORRECT gold paint inside, despite a lot of people thought it should be like lume etc. GEN has it golden in these places. - replication used carbon fibre straps the way there are only 2 visible ˜streams" on the bezel's surface; gen used like 4 different carbon straps (or they were applied the different way) so gen's effect is giving impression of 4 shades of grey (or more correct, 4 light reflecting areas). Rep has 2 or, with some luck with light - 3. - knurling and edge of bezel - hard to compare against gen photos The way Panerai achieved so interesting pattern on bezel surface was a bit tricky. First of all they have more than one type of carbon fibre straps or sheets with different light reflection abilities OR they turned each sheet 90º to each other to gain that light difference. They they formed many layers of such fibres into the mould and shaped them into somewhat arched block. The bezel is then cut (probably as slices when 1 slice = 1 bezel) and some flat angle, trough the layers, to get that “wave†pattern. I tried to explain the way they did it by this drawing: General problem expands to the method of cutting: while main case is just a matter of moulding of the block of carbon fibre straps/resins and then cutting whatever you want out of it - the bezel is a problem of its own. First of all, the cutting is very (!) precise on the gen. All straps are clean, there are no burns, rough edges and apparently no heat affected zones left (delamination visible as white edges on strap's borders), cutting without melting and so on. All this points to water jet cutting. Apparently, this method is not yet / not easy available to the rep makers or it is too costly to apply. Visible delaminations an a rep: No wonder Panerai dropped the idea of doing whole caseset this way As you can see, the bezel was cut through many arched layers, the same way on rep and gen. Water jet cutting on gen gives better results, apparently. Anyway, on most photos prototype 616 in shown in artificial, strong light. Maybe in daylight it will look different, more toward the way replica looks. CROWN GUARD, CROWN CAP - replication used carbon fibre straps the way there are only 2 visible "streams" on the CG's surface; gen used like 4 different carbon straps (or they were applied the different way) so gen's effect is giving impression of 4 shades of grey. - another difference: REG. T.M. text is engraved on replica while it seems to be stamped on genuine (pressed in somehow). Note that there is no change in color despite bottoms of letter are clearly below the surface of CG. - I am not sure about CG screws - if their silver colour is as per gen or maybe gen uses black ones instead. - lever pin looks like DLC'ed metal on gen - rep has it matte. I am not so sure about this detail, since I found photos of 2 different gens - one with shiny black DLC'ed top and the second - with matte one. Look at CP and REG.TM. on a gen: - crown cap is made from carbon fibre material, as per gen CASESET (except bezel, CG and crown) - replication is almost flawless, really. To compare what's wrong we need to handle rep and gen in hand at the same time - otherwise, not enough photos to compare and detect that something is wrong. - lug holes are a bit lower in the rep General notice to carbon fibre composite parts on gen: they look like wax shined or something like that while replicated elements are bare carbon fibre composite. I should try to somehow wax it to see if it's better. Photo of caseback as taken from my QC: DIAL - to me it looks flawless. - hands lume application on rep seems even better than on a gen - CP cap is OK MOVEMENT Standard these days - A7750 without chrono module but with decorative plates. Problems with delivering power from rotor to autowind module - probably are sorted out long ago, with first versions of decorated P.9000 movements. The rotor is noisy, probably due to the material caseset if made from (i.e. the case of noisy movements in watches with casesets made from titanium). The movement is hold in case by a means of a rubber o-ring - no metal tabs visible. STRAP - looks like standard submersible 26mm accordion strap but with black, matte DLC'ed buckle - not too stiff, not too soft - they got it right, I think. - the blue Panerai logo is done well; it doesn' look like "let's glue that logo somehow and be done with it" approach - it looks like properly redesigned standard strap to have that logo done right way - no shortcuts. GENERAL CONCLUSIONS: - ALL is great with exception of bezel being not executed as gen one. Really - all the rest is OK - in real live, to have really so contrasted "straps" visible on the bezel you need to play with strong, artificial sources of light - both rep and gen. In broad daylight the effect is less apparent. - the carbon fibre material feels more like ceramic than plastic (as this was the case with i.e. AP FC Diver). Great feel when touched. - Maybe replica makers will solve problems with bezel manufacturing; in such case I will buy cheap version of it when it becomes reality and swap movements. - I counted like 3 gen prototypes judging by various photos and they have little differences (besides carbon fibre patterns) so who knows how final gen version will look like - I truly cannot imagine other makers will came up with something of better quality. It is typical KW/V6F replica. They have experience in making PAM 508 first hand. To make perfect bezel replica makers would have to go great lengths to achieve all the effects of a gen. Other than that, they can offer better price and DLC'ed black CG pin - to buy or not to buy - I decided to buy it now, do this small review and have a great summer watch. If makers came up with revised version - I will try to import just a bezel or cheaper version and swap movements. So no buyer's blues at all Some quick photos (it is early morning with weak light, will add some more later): Small video: Edited May 12, 2015 by PolonusTM Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UmpaHimself 223 Posted May 12, 2015 Wow, looks really great. Congrats on getting the first one and thanks for posting! It's highly appreciated. I wonder what type of variations we are going to see from gen to gen. Also, from rep to rep. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nunu78 1,744 Posted May 12, 2015 wowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, i am amazed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Not That Rich 21 Posted May 12, 2015 Thanks for the info and thanks for sharing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genius 281 Posted May 12, 2015 Wow that really is some watch! And great little review you put together there, especially with the difficulty of comparing it to a gen that hasn't actually been released yet. Good work Would be interested to see the effect you get if you do decide to try and wax it Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stuvetjee 17 Posted May 12, 2015 Great review and stunning watch! When i first saw the released Carbotech i wasnt impressed. But after seeing it many times, im liking it more and more! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alan d 81 Posted May 12, 2015 Thanks for a great review - Ive been torn between this or a PAM 438 for my Wedding Day watch, this has swayed me back again as earlier 616 photos that I've seen did not have the Bezel layup pattern. Thankyou for putting my mind at ease! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toyota08 0 Posted May 12, 2015 Lovely watch, Just a reminder guys if doing mods to these or any Carbon fiber DO NOT breathe the dust or get splinters into the skin,Carbon fiber is as bad as Asbestos. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiko1314 0 Posted May 12, 2015 Nice review. I guess I will just wait on a v2 or something. It is scary to see these factories came up with something so fast and still achieved 90% accuracy... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skywalker710 0 Posted May 12, 2015 Amazing review of yet another stunning piece... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chenzomg 0 Posted May 12, 2015 Excellent review man. I'm going to hold off and see what v2 is like or what the H-fac produce. Time will tell. This piece is a beauty as is though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deja123 0 Posted May 12, 2015 Ordered mine at Sead and a custom Blue Leather strap can' t wait until it will arrive Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nikohublot 0 Posted May 12, 2015 These reppers are crazy . Looks really good ! Never tought they can do this . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vreds 0 Posted May 12, 2015 Finally, I have been waiting for reviews of this since it was first announced. Been following Angus over at RG like an idiot to get updates about it and now it's finally here I'm going to wait for a few more reviews before making up my mind about it. Thanks for the review and your pictures are great mate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
HarleyMo 2 Posted May 12, 2015 This thing is really growing on me. You can never have enough PAMs right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PolonusTM 0 Posted May 13, 2015 Interesting fact: the company I work for has also composite manufacturing plant so I went there this morning to their lab, shown the watch and asked about it. Friend looked at it, tried to scratch it a bit and said that it looks like Ketron PEEK reinforced with carbon fibres. He said it is quite expensive, you can buy it in blocks, cat in whatever shape you want and that it is thermoplastic. I asked about the bezel pointing to nice zebra-like pattern and he replied that this is thermoplastic so they can heat it and bulge a bit - and cut into slices when it stabilises again. PEEK carbon fibre reinforced material is being produced by several (but limited number) of manufacturers and doing custom PEEK with such effect as on gen bezel would be custom, expensive job. Conslusions: - it is PEEK! so probably more or less the same material as on a gen - so "it is like ceramic" sensation when touched is correct one - few manufacturers where main is i.e. Quadrant and ordering a block of PEEK custom carbon fibre settings would cost several thousands of USD... - another hint taken from Paneristi forum - Carbotech bezel replacement will be VERY expensive - that's why we will probably NEVER see "as per gen" bezel :/ Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nikohublot 0 Posted May 13, 2015 I really love the look of this panerai but its waaaay to big for my babywrist :/ . @polonus whats your wrist size? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chenzomg 0 Posted May 13, 2015 Cheers for the additional info that's some next level reviewing! Maybe this is as good as it will ever be then. The fact they have this before the gen is available is already an amazing feat. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kiko1314 0 Posted May 13, 2015 I say give the Chinese a little bit more time and they will nail it. Look at the BPFF sapphire bezel, back then people say it is impossible and won't be economic for rep factory to produce them Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stormyboy 0 Posted May 13, 2015 Lovin' this V2 -- I see Noobfactory is also showing an updated one on their website. I think I may have found my next one Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALE7575 24 Posted May 13, 2015 Polonus has achieved IMO several interesting things through this magnificent review. - To give a good and true idea about the wacth you can get - To inform about the accuracy and quality of the rep - To Illustrate about the way the gen is made in a precise, rigorous and why not enjoyable way - You will love this watch and this rep after reading the review - We will get the info enough to give a valid evaluation of the rep It is impressive how rep maker KW-V6Fac has made such approach to the complicated and sophisticated gen. I agree with Polonus that dial is made really well, at least at the same level as gen. I saw the “delamination” effect that Polonus is talking about in some rep pics some days ago but I didn’t find the exact word to nominate it. “Delamination” is perfect and describes perfectly the flaw. Bezel obviously is not accurate, mainly under strong lighting conditions. But the attempt is awesome for a rep, mainly knowing the material is so closer to the gen. It is a shame that maker has not orientated the carbon fibers in the same way as gen: changing the orientation above and below of each layer. IMO this had been relatively easy for rep maker, and that had got the different 4 or more colours of the gen pattern and avoided in some way the zebra effect of the rep. But, as Polonus said, this effect will be much less evident under real lighting conditions. I’m really falling in love with this watch after reading the nice Polonus review. Evaluation: Bearing in mind accuracy of the front of the bezel maybe a First Class rep status would not be possible But bearing in mind the quality of the dial and the awesome construction and attempt made by the maker and the help of the closed caseback, maybe a First Class rep bordering lower status would be a fair decision What are you thinking about ?? Thanks and keep the good job ALE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Genius 281 Posted May 14, 2015 I see Noobfactory is also showing an updated one on their website. erm which website??????? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
