Luthier 1 Posted March 4, 2009 "Make no mistake, factories are part of cartels that control the watch trade. But the factories are the cartel, not the dealers. I always have to laugh when I see that in print about a couple dealers. This organization is huge biz and again, it is run by factories (read: the Mob who has lots of little factories/assembly houses/places with the million dollar CNC equipment guarded by guys with machine guns and moreover hundreds of little factions all feeding the whole). The dealers are pretty much powerless. All they are there for and are allowed to operate for is to show the factories the way in terms of what is hot and not and sells and doesn't sell so they can do as well as possible in the wholesale watch markets - That's it. Our dealers operate at the pleasure of the factories and if they become a pain in the a*s for them by asking for too many favors or being critical about movments or whatever, they would just get laughed off the block. There is always another dealer ready to take the place of one who doesn't play by the rules..." This post is most laughable I've ever read. Guy definitely has no any slightest idea, how it's really works. OK, here's some info: No such a thing as "replica factories" in China. Absolutely all parts for our reps made on LEGIT watch factories, that make millions of legit chinese watches. One factory make metal parts - bracelets, cases, and has a small division, that make copies of genuine cases and bracelets. Another factory specialized on dials and hands only, for legit chinese brands, but a small division make reps dials and hands. Another factory make saphires, again, for legit chinese brands, and also for replicas. Absolutely all movements come from Shanghai Mov't factory and from Hangzhou Watch factory. Etc, etc, etc. Then all parts come to assembling workshops. It's usually small (20-30) people workshop, where they put all parts together, and voila - your Superocean or Datejust is ready for shipment. No tough security guys with UZIs, no name on the wall, nobody knows, what they doing there. Why authorities didn't crack 'em down? Because authorities get good chunk of the profit. Simple. There's hundreds of legal watch factories in China, and dozens of assembling workshops. It's multimillion dollars business. Much bigger that any of us could imagine. So, ofcourse, everything and everyone is "well oiled". We heard about many crackdown cases on DVD manufacturers, but never on replicas makers. It's like our AIG - too big to fall. Who determine the prices? These assemblers. They dictate MSRP to dealers, and if a dealer will sell it for much less - well... then he/she will have the problems. That's why prices are almost the same everywhere. Dealer can sell for more, but not for less. That's the law. I don't think anyone would presume, that somebody will buy superexpensive CNC machines, spend years, teaching personnel, rent huge facilities, buy materials, etc, to make a "replicas factory". What for, if hundreds of legal factories exist? And everyone willing to put some extra cash in their pocket, making reps parts. So simple. How do I know it? Well... You guess... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trailboss99 994 Posted March 4, 2009 Luthier! Good to see you back! Me/ goes to make pop corn and to find RobbieG. Luthier and JohnG VS Robbie. This will be one for the books if I can get him over here. Col. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sconehead 5 Posted March 4, 2009 I've read your post about your trip to GZ so obviously you have a bit more info on how things work compared to the OP who's just making assumptions...good post Luthier... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luthier 1 Posted March 4, 2009 I've read your post about your trip to GZ so obviously you have a bit more info on how things work compared to the OP who's just making assumptions...good post Luthier... Thanks, guys. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
onzenuub 306 Posted March 4, 2009 Nice to see you back over here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greg_r 81 Posted March 4, 2009 Yeah, good to see you posting again, Luthier! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trailboss99 994 Posted March 4, 2009 Robbie's a little busy ATM but will try to make it over some time soonish. Asked me to post this rebutal in the meantime: Right, but he is leaving out some critical parts. So maybe you can post this for him Boss: 1. I never said the factories make the parts. But as soon as they are intended for reps and 1:1 copies, the legit factories are part of a conspiracy and it is a MOB conspiracy. 2. The dials are the part that gives it away and are made seperately and again, people are paid off because the MOB controls the rep biz. 3. Those sweatshops that assemble the watches are most certainly mob controlled and they are secret and they are protected and again police are payed off to keep quiet. But no, the CNC equipment that makes the parts isn't there. What difference does it make? Same outcome which is an illegal product is made and sold by the MOB. 4. Anyone who thinks that the MOB isn't controlling any multi billion dollar illegal industry in China or any country is on glue. Wait, and he works around glue all day! Hey we figured it out! LOL. OK how about this, you write to a dealer and tell them you are coming to GZ and will be starting or taking over one of the operations. Let us know what happens when you walk into a sweat shop, tell them you will be taking over and you guys work for me now - I'll pay more. One of them will quietly leave and if he isn't already there, he is around the corner - the tough guy that is going to kick the sh*t out of you, the call the cops who he knows and pays off and then you will be rotting in a GZ jail unil St Crispins day. LOL. People just love to start sh*t man. Obviously an OP like mine involves reading between the lines, but no, some piker has to start his post with an insult to me and my intelligence. Such big men on the internet. He always had a big mouth though. And he is a guitar maker from Los Angeles. WTF does he know? Oh, BTW,: If anyone wants a source for any particular fact Robbie stated in the OP feel free to go over to the origenal thread at RWG2 and ask for it. Or, I supose ask me and I'll source it from him if you must. Col. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RolexAddict 1 Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) good infos Luthier, I never been in China for watches, but I know that since long time. Those who imagine children assembling watches in basements or in secret suites somewhere in a 50 floors building have understood nothing from this business For exemple, Ebel, Hublot etc. etc. have factories in China producing cases, parts, AND, in the SAME FACTORY, you have a little unit producing the Ebel and Hublot reps, Rep world in China is a part of the global Chinese culture and admitted by the autorities. Like in France we are not to bad for wine, in China they are excellent for copy. The problem is when they copy medecine drugs. Edited March 4, 2009 by RolexAddict Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greg_r 81 Posted March 4, 2009 For what it's worth, the situation has been similar in audio. There are several factories in China producing high-end audio gear (mainly amplification and and loudspeakers) for a variety of well-known western companies. In fact, most of the mainstream loudspeaker manufacturers now get their cabinets made in China. There's also still a big market for tube (or valve for those in the UK) amplification amongst serious hi-fi enthusiasts. Unfortunately, most of the manufacturers ceased production of tubes 20 years ago, so those used by high-end manufacturers like Audio Research these days are mostly made in China. Increasingly, chassis and circuit boards are also being made there due to cost. Of course, that means that the same factories are now also producing cheap clone gear under their own names. There's a famous Marantz tube pre-amplifier that ceased production some years ago and is very sought after by hi-fi enthusiasts both here and in the US that can still be picked up 'new' under another name - manufactured by the same company who built the last few batches for Marantz. If you know the right person to ask, they'll even supply it with the Marantz name on it. Yes, rep amplifiers! Interestingly, they're every bit as good as the original, too - I had the opportunity to do a comparison fairly recently and was pleasantly surprised at how good the 'rep' was - the differences were barely audible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
trailboss99 994 Posted March 4, 2009 RA, are you seriously telling me you think that Ebel reps are produced in the Ebel factory??????? Na, sorry, I just can not come at that one mate. The case is good enough that some one may well have stolen the Cad/Cam program but to say the're made in the plant is just too much! If that were the case they would all be perfect and not rpes but blackmarket gens. Don't you think Ebel etc have their own reps at these plants they own???? Some how I don't think they would take too kindly to that sort of free enterprise. Col. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AllergyDoc 40 Posted March 4, 2009 I never bought into Robbie's story. Who's actually been there? Who's the eyes on the ground? China is a huge country with a huge population. I don't see how "the mob" can control every aspect of the replica business. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luthier 1 Posted March 4, 2009 People just love to start sh*t man. Obviously an OP like mine involves reading between the lines, but no, some piker has to start his post with an insult to me and my intelligence. Such big men on the internet. He always had a big mouth though. And he is a guitar maker from Los Angeles. WTF does he know? Oh, BTW,: If anyone wants a source for any particular fact Robbie stated in the OP feel free to go over to the origenal thread at RWG2 and ask for it. Or, I supose ask me and I'll source it from him if you must. Col. Yeah, really... what "guitarbuilder from L.A." could possibly know about it... He just lived in China for a few years, speaks decent chinese, knows a few dealers personally, and visited not only their offices, but a few assembling factories too, and was in the heart of this system... so, watdafak he's taking ebaut??? Is it enough to write about it? Oh, Robbie... what's the clown... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luthier 1 Posted March 4, 2009 For what it's worth, the situation has been similar in audio. There are several factories in China producing high-end audio gear (mainly amplification and and loudspeakers) for a variety of well-known western companies. In fact, most of the mainstream loudspeaker manufacturers now get their cabinets made in China. There's also still a big market for tube (or valve for those in the UK) amplification amongst serious hi-fi enthusiasts. Unfortunately, most of the manufacturers ceased production of tubes 20 years ago, so those used by high-end manufacturers like Audio Research these days are mostly made in China. Increasingly, chassis and circuit boards are also being made there due to cost. Of course, that means that the same factories are now also producing cheap clone gear under their own names. There's a famous Marantz tube pre-amplifier that ceased production some years ago and is very sought after by hi-fi enthusiasts both here and in the US that can still be picked up 'new' under another name - manufactured by the same company who built the last few batches for Marantz. If you know the right person to ask, they'll even supply it with the Marantz name on it. Yes, rep amplifiers! Interestingly, they're every bit as good as the original, too - I had the opportunity to do a comparison fairly recently and was pleasantly surprised at how good the 'rep' was - the differences were barely audible. I met one old man, who make tube audio amps at his personal small workshop in GZ, and was amazed with sound quality of his amps. Prices - around $300 -$400 per 25 watts stereo amp. Beautiful wooden/aluminum body, beautifully exposed tubes, great design and fantastic sound. He don't have website, but I got his business card. True master. And, ofcourse, a few factories there also making quite good tube amps. One day I'll definitely buy one for myself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sconehead 5 Posted March 4, 2009 He reckons he's got a seven figure sum as well...why's he on the rep forums then??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greg_r 81 Posted March 4, 2009 I met one old man, who make tube audio amps at his personal small workshop in GZ, and was amazed with sound quality of his amps. Prices - around $300 -$400 per 25 watts stereo amp. Beautiful wooden/aluminum body, beautifully exposed tubes, great design and fantastic sound.He don't have website, but I got his business card. True master. And, ofcourse, a few factories there also making quite good tube amps. One day I'll definitely buy one for myself. Yep. There's quite a few of 'em - ranging from talented individuals through to larger factories. Many of which build really good kit. Treat yourself one day - I know you're the kinda guy who would appreciate that sort of gear Many years ago when I was in the business, you used to be able to find the same kinda operation in Japan as well (I had UK importation deals with a couple of 'em), but the little guys have all but disappeared - it's just the big companies now. Good to see that China is filling the gap. Some close friends (the couple who bring me back watches occasionally) are still in the business and spend a lot of time out there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luthier 1 Posted March 4, 2009 I met one old man, who make tube audio amps at his personal small workshop in GZ, and was amazed with sound quality of his amps. Prices - around $300 -$400 per 25 watts stereo amp. Beautiful wooden/aluminum body, beautifully exposed tubes, great design and fantastic sound.He don't have website, but I got his business card. True master. And, ofcourse, a few factories there also making quite good tube amps. One day I'll definitely buy one for myself. Yep. There's quite a few of 'em - ranging from talented individuals through to larger factories. Many of which build really good kit. Treat yourself one day - I know you're the kinda guy who would appreciate that sort of gear Many years ago when I was in the business, you used to be able to find the same kinda operation in Japan as well (I had UK importation deals with a couple of 'em), but the little guys have all but disappeared - it's just the big companies now. Good to see that China is filling the gap. Some close friends (the couple who bring me back watches occasionally) are still in the business and spend a lot of time out there. The sad point is... ok, I'll get hi-fi preamp and end, best possible turntable and needle, but... where to get vinyls? 19 years ago I left in my country about 800 LPs, from Beatles and Dave Brubeck to Paul Robson and Art Blackey... Gosh, what's the waste! And now I can't find Klaus Lenz Big Band LP, tried for all 19 years, useless. Saw once on UK eBay, but it was too late, sold already. Finding LPs in good condition is a very hard task, I think, and it takes a lot of effort, I just don't have enough time for it. But... who knows? Maybe soon I'll collect vinyls again... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greg_r 81 Posted March 4, 2009 The sad point is... ok, I'll get hi-fi preamp and end, best possible turntable and needle, but... where to get vinyls?19 years ago I left in my country about 800 LPs, from Beatles and Dave Brubeck to Paul Robson and Art Blackey... Gosh, what's the waste! And now I can't find Klaus Lenz Big Band LP, tried for all 19 years, useless. Saw once on UK eBay, but it was too late, sold already. Finding LPs in good condition is a very hard task, I think, and it takes a lot of effort, I just don't have enough time for it. But... who knows? Maybe soon I'll collect vinyls again... Oh man... I feel your pain. I used to collect early stereo vinyl from the late fifties/early sixties. I had around 4,000 albums. Then I moved into my current house (which is in a much nicer area, but is about half the size of the old place) and had to sell the whole collection as I just didn't have anywhere to put them. I've got a lot of CD's and even more on computer, but it isn't the same... My only consolation is that I managed to transfer most of my rarest LPs to high-quality (24-bit/96khz) digital audio before I sold 'em. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RolexAddict 1 Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Col, a few month ago the Chinese autorities closed a factory who produced Ebel rep watches. This factory was producing gen Ebel cases and different parts. This factory was producing Ebel reps on the side. Ebel known this, but all this little world was living together and happy. Business is business, The Ebel company asked for reduced production prices, Chinese said no. So Ebel took vengeance, informed Chinese autorities about reps, the factory was closed. This is a true story. Also, some of this rep watch marketing/sales/websites is controlled mostly by East European cartel/mafia ? , not Chinese. Edited March 4, 2009 by RolexAddict Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luthier 1 Posted March 5, 2009 Also, some of this rep watch marketing/sales/websites is controlled mostly by East European cartel/mafia ? , not Chinese. RA, with all my do respect - you don't know chinese, if you said that. They'd never ever allow anyone to step into their turf. Period. Easterns - Russians, Hungarians, Czechs and some Polish companies do exist in China, in GZ too, but no way they interfere in local things, they're happy to do some trade business, that's all. They have no any weight there. Any Eastern mafioso, who'd try to "control" chinese, will be beheaded next day, and all his family in Eastern Europe too. You really don't know chinese. They're absolutely ruthless. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
