VDB Goes To Shit! Flushing Down The Sticky Diarrhea

[pollux1 3]

Oh. TX.. This is about keeping the hobby as honest as it can possibly be (I know it is almost and oxymoron). But, we are as every bit as passionate about it as the next guy. Please don't come he to degrade us. Our beef is with a situation and unfortunately for Joe he is the face that represents the forum where things came down..and a staunch supporter of VDB. Please understand this. We love this hobby and want nothing but the best. We hate cheats, scammers, crooks.. etc.. ask SFA.. he is as unbiased as they come, but knows what we stand for. Remember that flaunting your every possessions even if provoked is not necessarily mature. Please give us that much respect. We are not as immature as you think. Having fun and not taking ourselves seriously is not immature, but quite the contrary. Standing for what we think is right is not immature.. We are passionate..true.

 

fair enough but answer me this: how many people in this thread have bought a VDB or were bullied by Joe or anybody else to do so? Most of what I've read here were people with some sort of personal issue with Joe related to comments on the now infamous RG vintage section. Many people are jumping on the bandwagon just because they have some old resentment, imho.

 

The part I can't understand is the connection between promoting something and scams. It's like someone going to the TV, start offering financial advice with passion, you jump in the bandwagon, buy crappy stocks, burn your retirement fund and then blame the guy on TV. Unless you are 5 years old and do not know better, you're the one that made the wrong financial calls.

 

It's all good to be passionate. It's another to be blind by some unresolved issues. And again no offense to anyone. I don't know most folks here and I'm sure most of you don't know me either. Generic all encompassing statements are very dangerous and it's not my intention to make them.

so because I didn't buy a vdb pos it's ok for those who did to be shafted? Truth is truth not how you happen to wish it to be interpreted. Oh and don't make the mistake we're gonna swallow that shit.

[txcollector 0]

You mean to tell me that they didn't know gen crowns were fake???

 

I don't know. Do you? How can you tell what a person knew or not and when? I can't.

 

Just as an example I recently got one of those new 111J. The crown is really good. With a good polishing it virtually impossible to distinguish from the gen, even with a lupe. I can bet many PSC folks would not suspect the deception if they found one mounted on a gen PAM.

 

So you can say for certain that a beat up vintage PAM crown can be easily identifiable like this? I couldn't if I had the watch in my hands right now.

 

We still go with innocent until proven guilty here (pun intended).

[ebzen02 341]

You mean to tell me that they didn't know gen crowns were fake???

 

I don't know. Do you? How can you tell what a person knew or not and when? I can't.

 

Just as an example I recently got one of those new 111J. The crown is really good. With a good polishing it virtually impossible to distinguish from the gen, even with a lupe. I can bet many PSC folks would not suspect the deception if they found one mounted on a gen PAM.

 

So you can say for certain that a beat up vintage PAM crown can be easily identifiable like this? I couldn't if I had the watch in my hands right now.

 

We still go with innocent until proven guilty here (pun intended).

They knew TX.. Too bad I cannot go back to that Jhilly thread..oops..

 

Anyhow... I need to go.. Appreciate you staying a bit longer though..Really do..

 

 

EDIT: Damn I cannot wait for the new 005!

[txcollector 0]

so because I didn't buy a vdb pos it's ok for those who did to be shafted? Truth is truth not how you happen to wish it to be interpreted. Oh and don't make the mistake we're gonna swallow that shit.

 

And where did I say it was OK for people to get shafted? That's the kind of thing that makes the discussion very difficult.

 

Nobody is defending VDB for lying and for putting together poorly assembled watches. Nor we dispute the VDB pieces are overpriced and overrated.

 

The beef I have with this thread is that instead of being a warning to people that were considering a VDB build to watch out, this has become a witch hunt of people that were very passionate about early VDB watches like they were either responsible for VDB lack of morals or were conspiring to make a financial gain.

 

The facts are most if not all of information exposing VDB were either posted at W-C or were initiated by the W-C staff (MBW and Joe in the case of the BC fiasco).

 

So again I asked, where did I say it is OK for people to be duped?

[txcollector 0]

EDIT: Damn I cannot wait for the new 005!

 

me too. I want to upgrade my new 005 franken.

[prestigewatchco 2]

I can't disagree with you TXcollector that the person who brought this to light had is own skeletons in the closset it would seem. But it is a fact that he did come out about these watches before anyone else became public. I don't think for one moment he did it for the benifit of others that was a side effect of his actions.

There was peer pressure though regardless of what you say you are dealing with a group of people who are not in most cases rational or sensible in the normal sense of the word otherwise they would never have sold any $4K fake vintage watches so that is not really a valid argument these were lead by the nose and being the type of people they were felt compled to drink from the well

[sirsubsalot 0]

I'll be glad when this thread dies so I won't have to think of "shit" "flushing" and "sticky diarrhea" every time I visit this site

[txcollector 0]

I can't disagree with you TXcollector that the person who brought this to light had is own skeletons in the closset it would seem. But it is a fact that he did come out about these watches before anyone else became public. I don't think for one moment he did it for the benifit of others that was a side effect of his actions.

Well, he brought this to light after he was called out by MBW for trying to sell a regular rep case for $1500. So very self serving if you ask me and if it wasn't for MBW's pressure he would not have come forward with it.

 

So one of the persons being accused of deception is in fact the one that forced the issue in the open.

 

There was peer pressure though regardless of what you say you are dealing with a group of people who are not in most cases rational or sensible in the normal sense of the word otherwise they would never have sold any $4K fake vintage watches so that is not really a valid argument these were lead by the nose and being the type of people they were felt compled to drink from the well

 

I'm confused with this one. Not really sure what you are trying to say. So people have poor judgment with their money therefore it must be somebody's fault.

[prestigewatchco 2]

Not at all Tx collector and I think you know full well what I am saying. Every time one of these was offered for sale a group of shills wouldbe experts and long standing members would add their valuable comments and endorcements of how great it was of how great an investment and outstanding value it was . Yes the person had a choice to not buy but all this cheering certainly had an impact on the person who knew nothing making an informed decision

[txcollector 0]

Yes the person had a choice to not buy but all this cheering certainly had an impact on the person who knew nothing making an informed decision

 

there, that's the key of what you just said.

 

I made my own mistakes of buying junk stuff based on cheering of others. Expensive lesson, yes but I accepted my losses and made sure I did not repeat that. Do I blame the crowd? not for a second. It's my mistake to spend my money without due diligence. I can't put that burden on others.

[prestigewatchco 2]

Regaedless of whether you accepted the loss as your own fault or not the fact remains you were influenced by others in making the decision to buy. In the cases we are talking about now in many cases it would appear that the people doing the cheering for want of a better expression did so in the knowledge that the item was a POS and only did it for one of 2 reason

1 To help a freind get out of the finacial problem he was facing if it came to light it was a POS

2 To bolster the value of the same POS they were holding and facing a finacial loss with if it became knowledge it was a POS

 

Not detracting form the fact the major problem started with VDB these people also contributed to others suffering finacial loss with their cheering about what a wonderful item it was

[sfa437 0]

I liked VDB's early work and the ones I saw in 2008 (IIRC) were well made. I had hands on two, one with a display caseback and the Angelus movement inside was pristine.

 

Again I refer you to the PAM expert of all times, Matt. He got screwed over on a 114 dial and there are thousands of pics of them everywhere. These things nowadays are close- we all know that.

 

Being that the parts are so close to gen you need a 10x loupe to figure shit out- how easy would it to be to play switcheroo with something where only 10 examples exist and 8 are in the Panerai museum? Just because people were fans of his work and wanted to believe the best in someone who appeared to have a passion for the recreation of historical watches does not make them complicit in any wrongdoing.

 

Hell I was a fan of his work and complimented him many times and TBH he started the whole craze that led to Nightwatch and PBdad and the many talented modders and partsmakers we have now. Shit sooner or later one of em are gonna figure out how to make a 6497 look like an 8 day Angelus

 

All I am saying is that just because guys like Joe, MB&W and yes even myself liked his work does not mean we forced anyone to buy anything from him. All it means is we took him at his word which in hindsight should have been verified or questioned directly. THAT is the only fault made IMO.

[txcollector 0]

also you are saying all VDBs were bad. From what I've heard the initial builds were very good. Over time he got sloppy and greedier. So how can you assume people knew all the VDBs around? and why would the people being accused of cheering expose the charade now?

 

Wouldn't be more logical that the people that could afford the VDBs in the beginning were truly impressed and the pieces they owned were higher quality? Assuming facts is dangerous.

 

Also before NW, where would you buy one of those pieces? The price inflation has a lot to do with the lack of supply as well.

[pollux1 3]

Yes the person had a choice to not buy but all this cheering certainly had an impact on the person who knew nothing making an informed decision

 

there, that's the key of what you just said.

 

I made my own mistakes of buying junk stuff based on cheering of others. Expensive lesson, yes but I accepted my losses and made sure I did not repeat that. Do I blame the crowd? not for a second. It's my mistake to spend my money without due diligence. I can't put that burden on others.

Ahh, but the rub is this, to what extent did those who led the cheer know they were recommending crap?

[txcollector 0]

Yes the person had a choice to not buy but all this cheering certainly had an impact on the person who knew nothing making an informed decision

 

there, that's the key of what you just said.

 

I made my own mistakes of buying junk stuff based on cheering of others. Expensive lesson, yes but I accepted my losses and made sure I did not repeat that. Do I blame the crowd? not for a second. It's my mistake to spend my money without due diligence. I can't put that burden on others.

Ahh, but the rub is this, to what extent did those who led the cheer know they were recommending crap?

 

I sincerely do not know. I for one will never buy another build from the guy that sold me the watch but the rest of the cheer team I can't even remember. I'm sure they were doing it to help out a friend but I'm can say for certain they were in the know.

 

Also crap is in the eye of the beholder. Maybe they thought it was good enough. Again, my money, my due diligence. I'm a big boy and I can't blame anyone else.

 

If I had the knowledge I have today back then I would be able to see the tells of a bad build from a distance. You mess up, you learn. That's life.

[sfa437 0]

Also before NW, where would you buy one of those pieces? The price inflation has a lot to do with the lack of supply as well.

 

Bingo. Back in the day VDB was a sole source supplier and did not share tips and how-to advice.

 

If you wanted quality vintage you had to go to VDB and pay for admittance. Look at it this way- why is a DRSD worth 30x as much as a comparable Submariner? Is there any intrinsic value to one... hell no! The difference is people WANT a DR for whatever reason and this drives the price up, especially since there ain't no more. McQueen Explorers sold like shit in the day- now they are "collectors items" and the same with the Neuman Daytonas and there is speculation the dude never owned one

 

Now be honest with yourselves here.... how many of us built vintage watches based on seeing a VDB and saying "I can do that"? We tried (and sometimes failed) to emulate a VDB with what we had on hand, which led to custom parts makers, which led to more of us wanting to give it a go and so on. Just because people with the means to do so got in early, were impressed and said so does not mean they were complicit in later shady activity. Isn't the simpler solution to say they liked what they got and endorsed what they thought was a good product?

 

OK 4 of Joe's watches needed service... whoop de fucking doo! Out of 20 reps I have bought 7 needed some work. Doesn't mean they're all pieces of shit- it means sometimes shit happens. Same crap happens with gen watches. One buddy had to send a Chrono Avenger back 3x before they unfucked it. Doesn't make Breitling a shitty watch company.

[PatronSaintofChainsaws 1]

I skipped most of the recent chatter as I didn't want any part of it, but I figured it would be a good time to chime in.

 

PSOC, care to share who it was who asked you to keep schtum about VDBs less than stellar build quality?

 

I made promises to a couple of different people not to disclose the details publicly, and my integrity in holding to those promises has not changed. If that makes me an asshole, so be it.

 

I can say that I recently purchased a movement from a parted-out VDB build that was assembled last year (spring 2010 specifically) where the dial was found to have been super-glued to the top of the movement. Superglue used to affix a dial to a Rolex 618 on a very recent build.

 

 

also you are saying all VDBs were bad. From what I've heard the initial builds were very good. Over time he got sloppy and greedier. So how can you assume people knew all the VDBs around? and why would the people being accused of cheering expose the charade now?

 

Actually the exact opposite of that was being said just the other day in jhilly's thread, as his build was an early one, and IIRC a couple of other people with early builds reported similar issues. I myself owned one of the early pieces for a while a couple of years ago and I didn't find the quality to be particularly great. I had to clean dried glue off the bridge plates for one thing...I never pulled the dial but now I feel bad for not completely disassembling it and fixing any other issues that I found before selling it. So there seems to be a history of not so great work.

 

Wouldn't be more logical that the people that could afford the VDBs in the beginning were truly impressed and the pieces they owned were higher quality? Assuming facts is dangerous.

 

Well Sylar was pimping VDB's stuff early on (circa 2007/2008) as I recall, so that was a strong positive endorsement to have the forum founders/admins sporting your wares. There's been speculation about where the RG VIP fees were going at the time...

 

Also before NW, where would you buy one of those pieces? The price inflation has a lot to do with the lack of supply as well.

 

WatchMaster, Finepics... I can't remember who else was doing them at the moment, but WatchMaster was noteworthy as he was even having his own cases made. Now I also owned a WatchMaster piece and I found the quality to be comparatively superior.

 

 

Bingo. Back in the day VDB was a sole source supplier and did not share tips and how-to advice.

 

They also had a bad habit of looking for excuses to belittle the work of other people, without providing constructive advice as to what they thought was wrong.

 

 

OK 4 of Joe's watches needed service... whoop de fucking doo! Out of 20 reps I have bought 7 needed some work. Doesn't mean they're all pieces of shit- it means sometimes shit happens. Same crap happens with gen watches. One buddy had to send a Chrono Avenger back 3x before they unfucked it. Doesn't make Breitling a shitty watch company.

 

For the price of admission, people expected better quality than your $200 reps, and rightly so. It's funny what happens when people begin discussing their problems and find out they everyone else was having the same issues.

[solkryssare 109]

Same crap happens with gen watches. One buddy had to send a Chrono Avenger back 3x before they unfucked it. Doesn't make Breitling a shitty watch company.

 

No but a lot of other aspects, such as being fucking ugly, makes Breitling a shitty watch company

[sfa437 0]

Same crap happens with gen watches. One buddy had to send a Chrono Avenger back 3x before they unfucked it. Doesn't make Breitling a shitty watch company.

 

No but a lot of other aspects, such as being fucking ugly, makes Breitling a shitty watch company

 

Ya know I can change the locks to the executive washroom and you'll have to piss in the corner like a wolf right?

 

Damn Rollie fans wouldn't know a real watch if it hit em in the face.... not a bad idea actually- anyone got a Super Avenger?

[trailboss99 994]

That was better than what I had intended to do. I almost started to write "Joewatch is a scumbag Powerhungry A-Hole" On all of those pics.. Too bad it was taking too long and thought my time was not worth it..

So glad you didn't, that would not have been in the least funny or appropriate. Childish yes, funny no.

Why take your threads down man? That's jut petty.

 

 

Col.

[solkryssare 109]

Same crap happens with gen watches. One buddy had to send a Chrono Avenger back 3x before they unfucked it. Doesn't make Breitling a shitty watch company.

 

No but a lot of other aspects, such as being fucking ugly, makes Breitling a shitty watch company

 

Ya know I can change the locks to the executive washroom and you'll have to piss in the corner like a wolf right?

 

Damn Rollie fans wouldn't know a real watch if it hit em in the face.... not a bad idea actually- anyone got a Super Avenger?

 

Go back to your love thread

[sfa437 0]

Same crap happens with gen watches. One buddy had to send a Chrono Avenger back 3x before they unfucked it. Doesn't make Breitling a shitty watch company.

 

No but a lot of other aspects, such as being fucking ugly, makes Breitling a shitty watch company

 

Ya know I can change the locks to the executive washroom and you'll have to piss in the corner like a wolf right?

 

Damn Rollie fans wouldn't know a real watch if it hit em in the face.... not a bad idea actually- anyone got a Super Avenger?

 

Go back to your love thread

 

I told ya you could enter the raffle WTF are ya doin here??? :lol;

[solkryssare 109]

Same crap happens with gen watches. One buddy had to send a Chrono Avenger back 3x before they unfucked it. Doesn't make Breitling a shitty watch company.

 

No but a lot of other aspects, such as being fucking ugly, makes Breitling a shitty watch company

 

Ya know I can change the locks to the executive washroom and you'll have to piss in the corner like a wolf right?

 

Damn Rollie fans wouldn't know a real watch if it hit em in the face.... not a bad idea actually- anyone got a Super Avenger?

 

Go back to your love thread

 

I told ya you could enter the raffle WTF are ya doin here??? :lol;

 

Fuck! Im on my way!

[Drhulee 0]

I've stayed quiet on this matter, mainly because I never really got into the Vintage aspect of reps, and could never really understand how anyone could pay more than a few hundred dollars for something that has been purposely altered to make it look older (never even bought into the 'stressed' clothing look ). Restoring, I can understand, but aging something prematurely, nope - but to each their own

 

After reading what has happened to date, all I can say is that I believe VDB (and partner) should have been banned on every site, as it really appears in the end they knew they what they had done. Meaning they tried to pass off rep parts as gen, even after they had been notified about the authenticity of those parts. They sold watches whose build and movement condition was horrible, to say the least (eg. Ziggy's experience with rust filled movement). They talked down to other members of the community, even while selling shoddy merchandise. They didn't step up and give full refunds, even if it meant a loss, to try and make things right. And, although they may have produced some nice looking pieces, they often took from the community much more than they gave back. In other words, they acted, probably because they are, like complete assholes, and probably even scammers.

 

As for JoeWatch, W-C et al, I think they are getting too much flak here. I, like many, instinctively think dirtbag when I hear the word "lawyer" , but I don't think Joe has deserved some of the name calling he's received here, especially as it is obviously not being done in jest (ie. RWG1.1 style). I understand that some feel it justified due to his actions during the first Vintage 'episode' over on RG. But as I was not part of that, and did not read any of the posts, and have not seen any quotes attributed to him, I can't factor any of that into my evaluation of his character. What I have seen is his helpful, and sometimes funny, posts on W-C, and his love of the rep watch hobby and community.

 

Yes sometimes the group over there comes across as an elitist "members' only" bunch, but I feel that is more due to the reason he, and the others, created W-C to begin with - a like-minded group of established friends from RG who love the hobby and became fed up with the way things were handled on RG at the time. And when you add to that MattUSS style of humour, things can seem a little weird from time to time

 

Anyway, I hope this episode gets behind us sooner than later. Especially before it gives SFA some more ulcers or grey hairs - I mean, come on he's already been through enough hasn't he

[Brightlight 0]

I've stayed quiet on this matter, mainly because I never really got into the Vintage aspect of reps, and could never really understand how anyone could pay more than a few hundred dollars for something that has been purposely altered to make it look older (never even bought into the 'stressed' clothing look ). Restoring, I can understand, but aging something prematurely, nope - but to each their own

 

After reading what has happened to date, all I can say is that I believe VDB (and partner) should have been banned on every site, as it really appears in the end they knew they what they had done. Meaning they tried to pass off rep parts as gen, even after they had been notified about the authenticity of those parts. They sold watches whose build and movement condition was horrible, to say the least (eg. Ziggy's experience with rust filled movement). They talked down to other members of the community, even while selling shoddy merchandise. They didn't step up and give full refunds, even if it meant a loss, to try and make things right. And, although they may have produced some nice looking pieces, they often took from the community much more than they gave back. In other words, they acted, probably because they are, like complete assholes, and probably even scammers.

 

As for JoeWatch, W-C et al, I think they are getting too much flak here. I, like many, instinctively think dirtbag when I hear the word "lawyer" , but I don't think Joe has deserved some of the name calling he's received here, especially as it is obviously not being done in jest (ie. RWG1.1 style). I understand that some feel it justified due to his actions during the first Vintage 'episode' over on RG. But as I was not part of that, and did not read any of the posts, and have not seen any quotes attributed to him, I can't factor any of that into my evaluation of his character. What I have seen is his helpful, and sometimes funny, posts on W-C, and his love of the rep watch hobby and community.

 

Yes sometimes the group over there comes across as an elitist "members' only" bunch, but I feel that is more due to the reason he, and the others, created W-C to begin with - a like-minded group of established friends from RG who love the hobby and became fed up with the way things were handled on RG at the time. And when you add to that MattUSS style of humour, things can seem a little weird from time to time

 

Anyway, I hope this episode gets behind us sooner than later. Especially before it gives SFA some more ulcers or grey hairs - I mean, come on he's already been through enough hasn't he

 

Drhulee, I agree with you in almost every aspect. My own view on the RG Vintage thing and Joe, and I was very involved at the time, is that this has proved how wrong he was and I found this very funny, a sort of pride before a fall type scenario, always a rich source of comedy. This is entirely separate to the real issue though. I think you are right about him getting a lot of stick here and elsewhere for the wrong reasons.

 

The aspect of this I am most uncomfortable with, and it is all supposition, rumours and jumping to conclusions, is how much did these people know while VDBs were being sold and before the shit hit the fan. Unfortunately Joe as owner of Wristwatch is right at the root of this, particularly after he raffled one of his VDBs just before this all went nuclear. Now I am more than willing to believe that there was no attempt to suppress VDB's failings for the purposes of maintaining prices and in fact I read that MB&W, knowing a VDB he was selling was not what it should be, refunded a good deal of the price paid, which is honourable. I do think this is something that needs to be brought into the open though, and a simple apology from those who without realising how it would look, sold watches at prices that would not be maintained once the truth was known, might defuse the situation. At the minute though a lot of allegations are being made, this is why I think this should be addressed. It is also long past time that people were able to criticise without being flamed, one of the reasons the VDB stuff took so long to come out apparently as you know from Ziggy's comments. I must confess to being quite shocked at his movement pics on the RWG Jr thread.

 

I can't comment on W-C, I am a lurking member using it only occasionally for reference, but I am not interested in fake vintage Pams (or modern Pams as you know!) and haven't read any of Joe's postings there.