ALE7575 24 Posted January 4, 2016 This thread is an extract from PAM Reference GUIDE of PAM 604 "Reference PAM REVIEW-GUIDE" - Replica Search, Identification, Evaluation & Selection. https://www.replica-...n-amp-Selection This thread will give you all information, data and links about the PAM 604 “Firenze” reps published in the main forums and the comments and evaluations made by myself after reading and study the reps, all available information and all the pics and QC pics published and received by e-mail and PM. As usually, the final evaluation that I have given, although considered after many hours of study and trying to be an average of general consensus, could have, unavoidably, some subjective component. Anyway, with all comments and links included in this thread you can get info enough to make your own Evaluation more adapted to your taste. Some people could easily get many different opinions regarding the final conclusions. Mainly because owners opinions are based in their own reps (one or two units) and sometimes because the owners opinions are biased to their reps. As above commented I have tried to be as impartial as possible and to get and average of the general opinions and myself one. PAM 604 “FIRENZE” – Overview and Evaluation of all reps – Jan 2016 (*) FIRST ClASS REP BORDERING LOWER STATUS ( ZFac R-series w/ P.3000 Clone4 ) The best option from March 2015 GOOD REP BORDERING FIRST CLASS REP STATUS ( SF R-series w/ P.3000 Clone4 ) JUST A GOOD REP ( KW-V6Fac R-series w/ P.3000 decorated A6497 ) The gen PAM 604 is a Radiomir 47mm made of SS, fitted with a 3 days Manifattura movement P.3000, it was introduced in 2015 (R-series) as a Limited Edition of 99 units to be sold only in Firenze Panerai Boutique. For this reason this watch was called FIRENZE and features a case with hand made engraving decoration exclusive for this watch, this is really the artistic value of the watch. Panerai claims that a single artist must work for about a week to produce the decoration on the steel case - which is extra tough because the case is in fact in steel. Most metals which are engraved in the world of watch making are brass or 18k gold, because they are softer. The hardness of steel makes it more difficult to engrave and requires special tools. Such tools make for a less forgiving engraving experience, so the artists need to be very careful, because mistakes can mean they need to start over again. The tactile experience of the engraving is very fine. Running your finger over the work doesn't allow you to really feel the engravings, which is nice. They are filled in with a black material which not only adds a welcome contrast to seeing the work, but also protects the engravings over time. The overall presentation is very good and akin to what you'd find on high-end engraved blades and guns. From a design perspective, the engravings are a nice mixture of the traditional, yet appropriate for the design of such a masculine watch. There is a floral motif - but just a little bit. I do find the designs to be extremely tasteful and like how Panerai was able to find space all over the dial surface as well as the crown. The gold-toned hands, matching the tan color lume, sandwiched between the black dial planes makes for an extremely classic look. Especially when the dial is wonderfully symmetrical with just the hour and minute hands. This is the dress equivalent of a sports watch. Panerai uses a sapphire crystal domed like Plexi crystal used in PAM 448, 449 and similar. Even though the Radiomir case is 47mm wide, it does not wear as large as one might expect. This is mostly because of the bar-style lugs which do not really jut out (as they do on the Radiomir 1940 case style). That means the lug-to-lug length on the watch isn't dramatically more than the case width. This, in addition to the flat caseback makes for an extremely comfortable fit on the wrist when it comes to the Radiomir 47mm case. GEN PAM 604 TECHNICAL DETAILS MOVEMENT-Hand-wound mechanical, P.3000 calibre, executed entirely by Panerai, 16½ lignes, 5.3 mm thick, 21 jewels, Glucydur® balance, 21,600 alternations/hour. Incabloc® anti-shock device. Power reserve 3 days, two barrels. 160 components. FUNCTIONS-Hours, Minutes CASE- Diameter 47mm, AISI 316L Brushed Steel. Engraved BEZEL-Polished Steel. CASEBACK- See - through sapphire crystal SANDWICH DIAL - Black sun-brushed with luminous Arabic numerals and hour markers. CRYSTAL- Sapphire crystal formed of corundum WATER-RESISTANCE- 10 bar (~100 metres) STRAP- Black alligator, Beige, STD, 27/22, BA, Radiomir 42-45-47mm BUCKLE- Trapezoidal polished steel, 22mm -ZFac R-series w/ P.3000 Clone4 March 2015 - ZFac released a rep of PAM 604 R-series fitted with P.3000 Clone4 movement. This rep movement P.3000 Clone4 is the last evolution of the first P.3000 Clone started in December 2013 with the rep PAM 372. This first Clone was perfectly reviewed for Rolexman in below links: * Review of the P.3000 Clone movement by Rolexman * http://www.rwgforum....00-super-clone/ http://www.replica-w...599#post1704599 The subsequent improvements are always decorative, therefore above review is valid for Clone2, Clone3 and Clone4 versions The differences are explained by ALE in below thread: Evolution of P.3000 Clone movements - From Clone1 to Clone 4 https://www.replica-...one1-to-Clone-4 by ALE See below the comparison of P.3000 Clone3 and Clone4 with gen P.3000 P.3000 CLONE - CLONE3 – CLONE4 – GEN COMPARISON This Clone movement has about 150 hrs of Power Reserve and after several years of working in the market without serious claims or breakdowns, we can conclude that this P.3000 Clone is reliable enough and we can expect a correct working at the same (or better) level than other good rep movements. The first version )from March 2015) had some flaws in caseback and in the “flower” engraving of the crown, few time after the release ZFac corrected those initial flaws and released a V2 version. To avoid confusion with other versions, since there are other version which people call V2, and bearing in mind that that first version lasted few time, we will talk from this moment about the definitive version from ZFac **** See below (after the comments about KW-V6Fac version) the comparison of this SF version with ZFac and KW-V6Fac versions, with pros and cons **** ZFac sells this watch with Plexi (cheaper version) or sapphire crystal, since the gen is sapphire I would avoid the Plexi crystal because it is really different from the gen. Evaluation : This ZFac version has a good Clone movement, the best sunburst effect, accurate numeral makers, the best RADIOMIR PANEARI engraving, the best and more uniform lume, the nicest case decoration engravings, but the worst hands and the worst CP (few noticeable). Good qualities but also important flaws, maximum First Class rep bordering lower status (obviously sapphire version). The best option from March 2015 More info here: http://www.replica-w...ad.php?t=208316 by Rusky91 http://www.repgeek.c...ad.php?t=248394 by maclee http://www.repgeek.c...ad.php?t=249508 by elmerpr Nice pictorial: http://www.replica-w...-ZF-Photo-shoot by panasol http://www.repgeek.c...ad.php?t=250086 by panasol Some mods: http://www.repgeek.c...ad.php?t=251808 by Electric0ant -SF R-series w/ P.3000 Clone4 May 2015- SF released a rep of PAM 604 R-series fitted with P.3000 Clone4 movement. This rep movement P.3000 Clone4 is the last evolution of the first P.3000 Clone started in December 2013 with the rep PAM 372. This first Clone was perfectly reviewed for Rolexman in below links: * Review of the P.3000 Clone movement by Rolexman * http://www.rwgforum....00-super-clone/ http://www.replica-w...599#post1704599 The subsequent improvements are always decorative, therefore above review is valid for Clone2, Clone3 and Clone4 versions The differences are explained by ALE in below thread: Evolution of P.3000 Clone movements - From Clone1 to Clone 4 https://www.replica-...one1-to-Clone-4 by ALE See below the comparison of P.3000 Clone3 and Clone4 with gen P.3000 P.3000 CLONE - CLONE3 – CLONE4 – GEN COMPARISON This Clone movement has about 150 hrs of Power Reserve and after several years of working in the market without serious claims or breakdowns, we can conclude that this P.3000 Clone is reliable enough and we can expect a correct working at the same (or better) level than other good rep movements. **** See below (after the comments about KW-V6Fac version) the comparison of this ZFac version with SF and KW-V6Fac versions, with pros and cons **** Evaluation : This SF version has a good Clone movement, acceptable sunburst effect, acceptable case decoration engravings, acceptable CP and correct production engravings on the back. But it has unacceptable wrong numeral markers, inaccurate hands and sloppy decoration engravings in relation to ZFac. Not bad rep but with important flaws, maximum Good rep bordering First Class status. -KW-V6Fac R-series w/ P.3000 decorated A6497 August 2015- KW-V6Fac release a rep PAM 604 R-series fitted with a decorated A6497 like P.3000, quite inaccurate, even this version has wrong blue bridges screws. This is a reliable but very inaccurate movement already used like rep of P.3000 in several reps from Noob and KW-V6Fac. The differences from gen P.3000 are evident with no necessary explanations. **** See below (after the comments about this version) the comparison of this KW-V6Fac version with SF and ZFac versions, with pros and cons **** Evaluation: This KW-V6 version has nice numeral markers on dial, nice CP, nicely rounded cutouts and the best FIRENZE engraving on dial. But the decorated movement is really inaccurate (besides with blue screws), crystal is a wrong and inaccurate Plexi, RADIOMIR PANERAI engraving is the worst of three 2015 versions and the case decoration engravings are not as good as in other versions. Just a Good rep without more ambitions. More info here: https://www.replica-...w-v6f?p=2365986 by Chel **** PAM 604 2015 reps - COMPARISON REVIEW ZFac vs. SF vs. KW-V6Fac **** MOVEMENT As above already commented, Zfac and SF are fitted with the same rep movement P.3000 Cone4. KW-V6Fac has a reliable but very inaccurate decorated A6497 like P.3000, therefore since this watch has display caseback the advantage of ZFac and SF over KW-V6 is really evident without more explanations DIAL LAYOUT- Is good in three reps without any important remarks DIAL SUNBURST EFFECT -ZFac effect is evident but slightly less marked than gen. The best sunburst effect of three reps studied -SF effect exists but is less evident than in ZFac version and gen -KW-V6 effect is in the same level of SF a bit inferior than in ZFac DIAL NUMERAL MARKERS -ZFac numeral markers are accurate, although a tad thicker (few noticeable): “12” is good enough, “3” is a bit different but few noticeable, “6” and “9” are much more accurate than SF version, because the inner middle stroke goes farther and the numeral looks more “closed”, just like gen. -SF numeral markers are not completely accurate: “12” is good enough, “3” is a bit different but few noticeable, “6” and “9” are very different because the inner middle stroke is shorter than gen and the numeral looks more “open” (very noticeable). See inaccurate orange contoured markers in below comparison pics. KW-V6 numeral markers are accurate either shape fonts or thickness. The more accurate of three 2015 versions. See below comparison pics DIAL MARKERS – GEN – ZFAc – SF – KW-V6 COMPARISON SANDWICH DIAL CUTOUTS- Gen Sandwich cutouts are rounded, a bit glossy and very nicely finished (almost polished). The inner vertical walls of the cutouts are really smooth. ZFac and SF rep sandwich cutouts are completely sharp and the inner vertical walls are very rough compared with gen ones. Only KW-V6 has a bit rounded edges, although no glossy, and they look more accurate than other 2015 versions. See below comparison pics. DIAL SANDWICH CUTOUTS – GEN – ZFAc – SF – KW-V6 COMPARISON DIAL RADIOMIR PANERAI ENGRAVINGS Gen engravings are more deep and overall more sharper and definied and very nicely made. Rep are less sharp and defined and have less uniformity. -ZFac RADIOMIR PANERAI engravings are a litte bit thicker than gen. But are deeper than SF version and almost like gen. The central horizontal strokes of “P”, “R” and “A” fonts are placed a little bit lower, but less than the other versions, they are more accurate in this version. The best engravings in PAM 604 2105 reps. -SF RADIOMIR PANERAI engravings are shallower and thinner than gen, some fonts are inaccurate: “A” has the horizontal bar placed lower, “P” and “R” have the inner hole bigger than gen and not only due to the thickness but due to the lower placement of the central horizontal stroke. The second “I” of RADIOMIR is crooked and of the center. -KW-V6 RADIOMIR PANERAI engraving is shallower and thinner than gen, some fonts are inaccurate: “A” have the horizontal bar placed really lower, “R” have the inner hole bigger than gen and not only due to the thickness but due to the lower placement of the central horizontal stroke. “E” has shorter central stroke and is placed closer to the “R”. The worst engraving of three reps IMO. DIAL FIRENZE ENGRAVINGS Gen engravings are more deep and overall more sharper and definied and very nicely made. Rep are less sharp and defined and have less uniformity. -ZFac FIRENZE engraving is almost as deep as gen, just a bit thicker than gen, but fonts shape is accurate enough. -SF FIRENZE engraving is shallower and a bit thicker than gen, but fonts shape is accurate enough. -KW-V6 FIRENZE engraving is shallower but the thickness is accurate with gen, fonts shape is also quite accurate (just “E” have a little bit shorter central stroke, few noticeable). Maybe the best FIRENZE of three reps. LUME AND ENGRAVING COLOURS - Lume and engravings colours are accurate enough in three reps. But charged lume of the hands is sometimes darker than markers lume in SF and KW-V6Fac. ZFac is the winner in this regard. CANNON PINION AND HANDS -ZFac CP is smaller than gen, but it has also the typical ZF weird raised rim contour and the size looks like gen, it is flattened and polished. I never like this ZFac CP, but the rim is less noticeable in this rep and looks nice enough. Hands are clearly shorter than gen even more than SF ones. Hands lume is clearly wider than gen in both hands. -SF CP is much smaller than gen but nicely flattened and polished. Hands are clearly shorter than gen but less than ZFac ones. Hands lume is wider than gen mainly in minute hand. -KW-V6Fac CP is a little bit smaller than gen, although the most accurate of three reps, it is flattened and polished. Hands have the most accurate length of three versions and hands lume is accurate in hour hand and a bit narrower is minute hand. Threfore the most accurate hands and CP of three 2015 reps. CASEBACK -ZFac caseback engravings are shallower than gen and SF version. Very similar to KW. SF is better in this regard. -SF caseback engravings are the best of PAM 604 2015 reps, because they are bolder than other versions, just like gen -KW-V6 caseback engravings are shallower than gen and SF version. Very similar to ZFac. SF is better in this regard. CRYSTAL- Gen crystal is domed sapphire. ZFac and SF have also domed sapphire crystal, but ZFac offers also a domed Plexi cheap and inaccurate version. KW-V6Fac has only inaccurate domed Plexi cheap crystal without sapphire option. I would avoid Plexi crystals because they are not gen-like and inaccurate. CASE AND BEZEL SHAPE- Three reps have accurate bezel and case shape, may be SF has smoother cushion edges and corners (more accurate) followed for ZFac and then KW-V6 which has the more squared corners. But above commented is few noticeable and variable between batches. We can say that three reps are accurate enough in this regard. SPECIAL PAM 604 CASE ENGRAVINGS- Gen engravings are hand made and therefore each unit will have different engravings. Gen engravings are nicely hand made and, due to that, they present some disparities characteristic of this type of craftsmanship, but the result is uniform, without flaws, with sharp and defined comtours and the black background is smooth. There are many fine details and many slim strokes in gen engravings of the case. Rep engravings are better than expected for a rep, but have less nice contours than gen, less clean manufacture, worse finish, less detailed strokes, less slim strokes in the draw, some sloppy parts, the black background is mot as smooth as gen and has some lumps in the surface. As you can see in below comparison pics, ZFac has overall the best engravings, more accurate, sharper and cleaner than other versions. SF rep has less accurate engravings, they are sloppier and less clean and the background is more lumpy and dirty, they have also less detailed draw. KW-V6 is more accurate and clean but this is due to have much less details. PAM 604 CASE ENGRAVINGS – GEN – ZFAc – SF – KW-V6 COMPARISON The crown is also engraved with a “flower” instead of the typical OP logo. The worst “flower” is from SF. ZFac and Kw-V6 have similar “flowers” which are accurate enough at real size but not perfert. Anyway gen “flower” will not be always the same due to hand made engraving. You can see the differences in above comparison pic Although ZFac has overall the most accurate engraving of the case, has an important flaw because the case engraving under the crown is completely different from gen. This was explained by electri0ant y below post: http://www.repgeek.c...l=1#post2660676 by Electric0ant Below comparison pics are showing the differences. CASE ENGRAVINGS UNDER THE CROWN – GEN – ZFAc – SF – KW-V6 COMPARISON You can see that ZFac part under the crown is completely different from gen, KW-V6 is similar to gen but still inaccurate. SF is the only version with accurate engraving under the crown. Therefore, aside the part under the crown, Zfac has overall the best engraving of three reps, and with nice appearance enough. PRODUCTION NUMBER AND OTHER BACK ENGRAVINGS- The correct production engraving of a PAM 604 should be R XX/99, since is a watch from 2015 and with 99 units of limited production. PAM 604 back has also OP6808 engraving and 100m waterproof engraving with the typical “fish”. Only SF has the correct production engraving and OP and 100m. ZFac has OP and 100m engraving with “fish” but production engraving has XX/99 without the R of 2015 year. KW has not any engravings on the back. Therefore the only accurate would be SF. STRAP BUCKLE- Gen buckle is without engravings. Therefore the rep engraved buckles are not gen-like and you can (you should??) avoid them. After above review is clear that ZFac is overall superior to the other versions, but aside a non perfect Clone movement, it has also other important flaws to get an evaluation of First Class rep of high or medium level, it is First Class bordering a lower status. SF and KW-V6 cannot reach the First Class rep status, although SF is near of it. REPLICA links: -ZFac R-series w/ P.3000 Clone4 (*)http://puretime.watch/product/pam604-radiomir-firenze-3-days-zf-best-edition-p3000-super-clone-v2/ (*)http://www.tswatch.club/16384-pa16384-pam604-radiomir-firenze-3-days-zf-1-1-p3000.html (*)http://www.torobravo2015.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1448 (*)http://www.7750asian.com/product_show.asp?P_id=3446 (*)http://www.intime.co/panerai/1936-pam604-o-zf-best-edition-on-black-leather-strap-p3000-super-clone.html (*)http://www.ttw8488.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=352&products_id=13188 -SF R-series w/ P.3000 Clone4 http://puretime.watc...super-clone-v2/ http://www.tswatch.c...-1-1-p3000.html -KW-V6Fac R-series w/ P.3000 decorated A6497 http://www.kuvarsit....dition-from-kw/ http://www.torobravo...product_id=1697 http://www.intime.co...uper-clone.html GEN links: http://www.ablogtowa...ed-watch-hands/ http://blog.perpetue...3-days-acciaio/ http://timeandtidewa...acciaco-pam604/ https://erwangrey.wo...-3-days-pam604/ http://www.paneraino...ch/pam00604.php http://www.watchpros...0988&pi=6774928 http://www.network54...w+entire+thread https://www.hodinkee...-firenze-3-days Thanks for reading ALE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
panerai love 2 Posted January 4, 2016 A very awesome review! Ale, your the best! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jmshen 0 Posted January 4, 2016 Holy crap this is amazing. The detail and scrutiny in this write-up. I can't even imagine the amount of time you put into this. I thoroughly enjoyed this and appreciate the work (even if my stupid pansy 5-3/4 inch wrists will never be able to don a Panerai) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
plankton 1 Posted January 4, 2016 Awesome update Ale..... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALE7575 24 Posted January 4, 2016 Thanks for the nice comments ALE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MetalMickey 179 Posted January 4, 2016 As ever, a superb write up from a true subject matter expert. Thanks for this! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hasat 0 Posted January 11, 2016 Great again my friend. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sakurai 1 Posted January 11, 2016 Ale, your reviews are so brilliant it almost defies belief - thank you so very much! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
