Rolex submariner...go REP or GEN ??

[Happy2017 0]

I went through two gen speedmasters and a gen sub. None of them lasted more than a year.

Even the best rep has obvious flaws once you know where to look.

Only gen will satisfy 100% but at $7000... I could take two family vacations and have money left over.

[Daywatch 4]

Good advice up there but it ends up with the first step being: buy the V7 rep - all else later. And testing the gen in the 3rd week is a good idea.

The question imho is not gen sub or rep sub or Speedmaster it´s one gen versus a whole varied rep collection to daily choose from with 1 or 2 nice frankens mixed in.

That´s a mix of AP, Breitling, IWC, Vintage, Panerai, Omega, Rolex, Tudor and so on and it beats by far the one-watch-philosophy.

[JackJ1980 0]

Get the rep and wear everyday for 2 weeks, then go to the AD and road test the gen of the exact same model. My guess is the decision will be made as soon as you put the gen on your wrist, you'll either be bowled over with the quality and feel compared to the rep or you'll be like "meh" don't know what all the fuss is about !

 

The rep will sell on here in seconds without too much loss of $$$

 

 

Keep us posted

 

 

 

Perfect advice.

[britain4 0]

Yes...I know there are alot of threats here and yes I have searched them, but..I want your opinion...should I go GEN on a Submariner or will V7 noob do the trick ?

 

Depends what you like about the watch, if it's the overall look and feel then the Noob is amazing. If it's the fine details, the perfection of the bezel engravings, SEL fit etc etc there's really no comparison.

 

You never said specifically whether you were after a 16610 or a 116610?

[mmoderni 2]

i will go for gen every single day. crystal on rep is too far from the original one. otherwise you need to franken it, but...

[LightGeek 25]

Get a rep. Then discover the land beyond Submariners. Then revisit this same topic in a year...

[Gmtaddict 1]

Get the rep and wear everyday for 2 weeks, then go to the AD and road test the gen of the exact same model. My guess is the decision will be made as soon as you put the gen on your wrist, you'll either be bowled over with the quality and feel compared to the rep or you'll be like "meh" don't know what all the fuss is about !

 

The rep will sell on here in seconds without too much loss of $$$

 

 

Keep us posted

 

 

 

Perfect advice.

 

Great advice, one I only discovered too late and ended up loosing a lot when selling a couple GENs one year after their purchase.

I have ever since applied it strictly: always try the Rep before going for the Gen.

I think it saved me from a couple compulsive purchases, so good for me!

Now, on the other way, buying a Rep is sometime so easy, you tend to accumulate a small collection, and end up trying watches you would never dream of owning,

and that created a couple Holy grails which I now NEED to buy Gen, so not sure this advice was so good to me after all....

[daydate 0]

buy the rep. use the spare cash on a strip bar. experience and memories > one genuine watch

[Diver Dave 0]

In 1977 I paid a week of my pay to buy a 15 year old Rolex Submariner. 5512. That was a whopping $425. What's it worth now? Five thousand? Six?

 

In 1979 I bought a one year old Rolex 1665 Sea Dweller, and have worn it continuously for the last 38 years. A couple of years ago a very respectful Japanese guy stopped me on the street in NYC and asked me about it. He was so polite that I told him a little about it, and after I was done he offered to take me across the street and buy me a new Sea Dweller and to add US$ cash of $10,000 on top of that. I said no... it's not for sale. I paid $1200 for that watch.....

 

In 1988 I bought a Rolex Daytona, with Tiffany on the dial, for $4200. What's that worth now? I stupidly traded it for my Gold GMT Master, circa 1964. I still made out... just not like I should have.

 

In 1990 I bought one of the last acrylic crystal GMT Masters, Gold & SS. I paid a whopping $1400 for it then. What's that worth now you think?

 

In 1993 I bought my wife a solid gold Lady Datejust, on a Lady President bracelet. It was used but beautiful. I paid $2200 for it. It'll be my daughters watch one day. Right now she's wearing the gold & stainless Lady Datejust that I bought for my wife in 1991. That was $750 then.... My daugher wears it as she makes coffee as a Barista at Starbucks. A good watch is meant to be worn.

 

 

See a trend? One of my secrets is to never buy a new watch. Let someone else take the depreciation hit. Then buy what's not going to be made soon. Hint: I don't own a sapphire crystal Rolex.... only classics.

 

 

 

Your $200 rep is worth $190 in a week, and in five years it'll be worth... $190. Maybe. And all the while you will have known that it's a rep.

 

 

With that said, I just bought a beautiful Tudor rep that I'm wearing now. Why? Well... the watches I struggled to pay for 30 and 40 years ago are priceless to me now. The rep lets me keep the time and I'm happy to rest my collection.

 

 

In the end it appears I bought my Rolex's for my family to pass down. If I had bought a rep, they would have something lesser to remember me by. What legacy do you want to leave?

 

 

The choice is up to you....

Edited March 29, 2017 by Diver Dave

[RandomGuy 0]

I'm not a Rolex guy so my opinion will be of little value. On gens generally I'm conflicted between Diver Dave's fine points above and a post I read last year on the "members show us your faces" thread. That guy posted a photo of his daughter's college graduation, adding that he made it possible because he bought gens. I've got kids now in private elementary school, and his post killed my gen cravings. (I still think of his photo whenever I pass an AD, and have the same goal.)

 

In the end it may also be about disposable income, and/or where one finds value most. I see both sides of the argument.

 

Closing thought: I've tried on a new no date sub in the AD, and also a used one. If you're still on the fence after buying a rep and then going to the AD to try on a new gen....then try a used gen on. It's what you'll own in a few years if you buy new gen. To me it was like the difference between a new car and a used one. The gild comes off the lilly, and like a prior poster commented it left me flat. New things always sparkle under the dealer's halogens....for a while. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[Diver Dave 0]

I'm not a Rolex guy so my opinion will be of little value. On gens generally I'm conflicted between Diver Dave's fine points above and a post I read last year on the "members show us your faces" thread. That guy posted a photo of his daughter's college graduation, adding that he made it possible because he bought gens. I've got kids now in private elementary school, and his post killed my gen cravings. (I still think of his photo whenever I pass an AD, and have the same goal.)

 

In the end it may also be about disposable income, and/or where one finds value most. I see both sides of the argument.

 

Closing thought: I've tried on a new no date sub in the AD, and also a used one. If you're still on the fence after buying a rep and then going to the AD to try on a new gen....then try a used gen on. It's what you'll own in a few years if you buy new gen. To me it was like the difference between a new car and a used one. The gild comes off the lilly, and like a prior poster commented it left me flat. New things always sparkle under the dealer's halogens....for a while. Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

 

Used Gen, bought carefully, are certainly the way to go.

 

I can't comment "much" about non-Rolex (well... that's not true, but not to the same degree), but contemplate this: Every Rolex I have ever bought seemed "way too costly" when I wanted it. And a decade later I kick myself for not being able to afford five of them.

 

I've always bought used watches. Good quality genuine used watches. And I have never lost a penny, and in fact the appreciation over three decades of what I've stashed away is much more than what I would have earned in the stock market. And, well... I have bought a "few" new watches, but they have been from unknown or little known makers long before they become "popular". Anyone remember Ken Sato and his RXW watches? It was a leap of faith to wire money to Japan, but his stuff was magnificent. I bought a few and stashed them. Appreciation? 200% after ten years.

 

But generally.... I buy used Gen watches.

 

Here's an example of a lost opportunity: When I was 13 I read about Rolex for the first time, and decided I wanted one. A Submariner (I was already diving by then, thanks to my Father & Grandfather, who were pioneering divers themselves). I did a little research and learned about Tudor. I went (at age 14 now) to the jewelry store in the next town (a 4 mile walk BTW) and asked to see a Submariner. The owner was kindly, and he brought one out so i could handle it. I told him I couldn't afford it then (no surprise to him), and asked the price of a Tudor Submariner. He didn't know, and dragged out the catalog to see. The Tudor, on a bracelet, was $190 at the time. This was in 1973. I told him I would be back, and went to business mowing lawns. When I had earned $190 (two years later) I went back. Guess what? The Tudor was now $225. >sigh<. Back to mowing lawns again. When I got $225 in hand I went back. Guess what? It was now $275.... and I gave up. It wasn't until I was 21 that I finally got my first Submariner, which I bought used for under $400, a princely sum at the time.

 

Lessons learned:

 

1: Rolex's appreciate, if you buy the right models. Often faster than your income.

 

2: The Tudor that was FAR too expensive for me at $190 is now worth $5000 and I can't afford one.

 

3: The old beat up non-date Sub that I bought used, for under $400, with the funny looking gilt dial? Guess what that's worth? Hint: 4X what the value is of what I would have bought new at the time and then kept for all of these years. That "beat up old bargain Rolex" that I bought from another diver, that was a step down from the new shiny one in the jewelry store "at the time" is a grail watch to many collectors today. It's worth LOTS more than what I would have paid $900 for new in the store then. USED WATCHES ARE THE WAY TO BUY. New watches are just another box on a shelf.

 

4: Unknown or little known stuff is where the opportunities are. Remember the jeweler I visited when I was 14? He didn't even think about Tudor. I had to tell him about them, and he needed to drag out the catalog to see what they were. And he was a Rolex AD! When everyone else is running in one direction, look the other way and see what they are missing. The Tudor Subs are now worth more than the Rolex versions bought on the same day in 1974.

 

 

 

For financial reasons only, buying good quality USED Gens is the way to go. I could list the ones I've bought and stashed away, and you would be shocked at the appreciation over the 20 year term. But that's a long range outlook, and needs to be based on buying undervalued models before they are popularly recognized. I could give some tips on what I'm buying now for investment reasons, but that would take away your fun in figuring it out yourself. My advice is "Buy what YOU are attracted to". If you have good taste, even if it's not "popular taste" today, the market will catch up to you in the future. If you have bad taste... you'll be punished. If you are buying what everyone else is buying, you're a follower and not a leader and you are already behind the curve. Figure out what YOU like that nobody else is buying TODAY and buy them. Enjoy them, and the enjoy watching to see how they do in the future.

 

Hint: Pre-WWII Rolex watches, the oldest ones built, are terribly undervalued today. Trench Watches, from WW-I, of good quality (Zenith, etc) are terribly undervalued today. No-Name Postwar Swiss diving watches, made with good movements, are investment grade opportunities if you know what you are looking at. Research is the key to this.

 

One last hint: If you want a Gen Rolex, buy one with an acrylic and not sapphire crystal. There's *no such thing* as an appreciating Sapphire crystal Rolex. They are all just mass market consumer goods and have zero appreciation *compared to older watches* potential. Don't even look at them. Trust me on this, it's good advice.

 

 

 

But it all can be summed up into "Buy what YOU like", and buy it used if you're buying a Gen.

 

If you buy a Rep? You're buying for today, and not tomorrow.

 

 

Know the difference.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Diver Dave

[Tk1973 0]

I'm in the above camp. Pre-owned gens if you can afford it.

 

I've had many different reps over the past 10 years in my collection and to be honest, nothing really feels like a gen. Maybe subliminal but just my thoughts.

[dilip 0]

I'm in the above camp. Pre-owned gens if you can afford it.

 

I've had many different reps over the past 10 years in my collection and to be honest, nothing really feels like a gen. Maybe subliminal but just my thoughts.

 

Get a KW Pam and welcome to my camp

[Diver Dave 0]

I'm in the above camp. Pre-owned gens if you can afford it.

 

I've had many different reps over the past 10 years in my collection and to be honest, nothing really feels like a gen. Maybe subliminal but just my thoughts.

 

Get a KW Pam and welcome to my camp

 

 

KW makes a nice PAM rep, however.... It's a more costly watch than a Gen. A gen is the least expensive watch in the world

 

Why?

 

Example:

 

Just dragged out my Gen PAM 24 A series, along with the receipt from purchase. I bought it used, in very good condition, some 7 years ago. t wasn't new. Why? First, I saved a few bucks (depreciation). Second, I could wear it carefully, and did: (I didn't put on the first scratch, and after there are ten scratches it makes no difference to the value, so the best investments are those already scratched). Price to purchase was $2200. Value now? About $5000-$6000.... with scratches.

 

This is typical of quality items. Buy carefully maintained used objects of high quality. Use them well. Your cost of ownership is the time value of the money you spent to buy it. And with care, the appreciation is worth more than your investment would have made elsewhere. Think of it as a loan of your own money to yourself.

 

Parallel example: I bought a 1992 Porsche 911 with 33,000 miles on it ten years ago for $24,000. It looked like new, garage kept Sunday toy. I drove it like a Honda, snow, rain, salt, etc.. never washed it. Beat the SHIT outta it,. Put on 175,000 miles. Only repair other than brakes, tires, oil, and filters was $500 for a muffler. Sold it last year with almost 210K miles on it for... $18,0000. Yup. That car was the CHEAPEST car to drive that I could have ever purchased. I could have bought a new Honda, and in the end it would have been sold for scrap and I would have been driving a Honda for ten years. I "lost" $6000 on the Porsche. I would have lost $24,000 on a new Honda over the same period.

 

 

Reps are for today. You buy it, you wear it, and it's valueless in the end. You're spending money you won't get back. Buy it for $200, sell it for $200 and you still lose the time value of your capital.

 

Gens are for a lifetime. You buy it with a loan you give yourself, and you pay yourself back with interest when you sell it.The way to optimize this is to buy out of production Gens that force your buyer in the future to buy from the used market, otherwise you're competing with the jewelry store. Buy good used things that are available in limited quantities, take care of them, and you'll never lose.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Diver Dave

[Hinclimincli 17]

 

"But generally.... I buy used Gen watches."

 

 

100% to what Dave's said. You can find really interesting Rollies on the second hand market, and the good thing about them is that even the 50 year old Rolex are still working well. I'm not sure if links to certain shops can be posted, so I'll keep it quiet, but I'm literally looking to an Oyster Perpetual from 1943 100% (like the first one that made it to the Everest), and it's below the £3k mark. That's way more than a rep, of course, but that beast will keep ticking after another 50 years and our asian "swiss ETA" probably won't.

 

And that's in terms of Rolex. If you look into Omega or Longines you can get really interesting timepieces below the £500 mark. Aaaaand, if you really go into vintage stuff, there are amazing watches for way less. I got myself a really impressive Cortébert from the 50s that works better than my Steinhart and Omega and is an absolute stunner. Costed me less than £100.

[Abe Fromen 1,623]

For any gen, buy used as noted above.

 

That said, I have gen and rep and frankly for my use, I don't see the point of laying down $6-10,000 on a watch when the rep is like 99% there (for rolex particularly). When I've had gen Rolex, everyone thought it was fake, when I wear panerai or IWC, no one knows what it is and don't care. If you're diving, you don't need a tool watch because dive computers give more info, are more accurate and really, why expose your watch gaskets to salt water. If you want a watch for diving, get a Seiko or similar for a few hundred.

 

Unless of course you've got a huge 6 or 7 figure salary... then all of the above is bunk... go gen cuz the cost of a SS Sub is like pocket change. But for the average working guy, I find reps give me all the fizz that gens give me, perhaps moreso, because it means I have less invested and more to play with on other things.

[porschespeedster 19]

Diver Dave is dropping a lot of knowledge jewels right now, both with cars and watches.

 

Gens are for investments, for handing down to your kids.

Reps are legitimate tool watches. They're tools that tell you what time it is, and they look good while doing so.

They surely don't appreciate in value, but for only a few bucks you can have a 'garage' of well-built watches that you can use like gens or even harder.

 

Buy used. Always. With everything you can, not just watches.

 

What I like is that now even Reps can be re-sold for about what you pay for them, so in the end you really lose almost nothing either way.

[Hinclimincli 17]

Reps are legitimate tool watches. They're tools that tell you what time it is, and they look good while doing so.

They surely don't appreciate in value, but for only a few bucks you can have a 'garage' of well-built watches that you can use like gens or even harder.

 

For some reason I really like the car/garage analogy, haha.

 

I am a bit curious about the toolwatch approach. To me a toolwatch has to be able to withstand some moderately tough conditions, meaning at least water resistant in case I go fishing or swimming a bit in the ocean (not diving at all, less than 5m underwater, basically), and some resilience to scratches (hence sapphire is a must, and a decent steel). Are reps able to tick these boxes?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to prove any point, I would love to buy a daily beater Explorer that I can wear no matter what I'm doing. But I don't think it would last.

[Abe Fromen 1,623]

Reps are legitimate tool watches. They're tools that tell you what time it is, and they look good while doing so.

They surely don't appreciate in value, but for only a few bucks you can have a 'garage' of well-built watches that you can use like gens or even harder.

 

For some reason I really like the car/garage analogy, haha.

 

I am a bit curious about the toolwatch approach. To me a toolwatch has to be able to withstand some moderately tough conditions, meaning at least water resistant in case I go fishing or swimming a bit in the ocean (not diving at all, less than 5m underwater, basically), and some resilience to scratches (hence sapphire is a must, and a decent steel). Are reps able to tick these boxes?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to prove any point, I would love to buy a daily beater Explorer that I can wear no matter what I'm doing. But I don't think it would last.

 

So you get the best explorer you can find on the rep market and spend $100 or so to get it waterproofed.

[Thelittleprince 2]

Guys... Op is banned! So lets not waste our time here anymore

[Diver Dave 0]

For any gen, buy used as noted above.

 

That said, I have gen and rep and frankly for my use, I don't see the point of laying down $6-10,000 on a watch when the rep is like 99% there (for rolex particularly). When I've had gen Rolex, everyone thought it was fake, when I wear panerai or IWC, no one knows what it is and don't care. If you're diving, you don't need a tool watch because dive computers give more info, are more accurate and really, why expose your watch gaskets to salt water. If you want a watch for diving, get a Seiko or similar for a few hundred.

 

Unless of course you've got a huge 6 or 7 figure salary... then all of the above is bunk... go gen cuz the cost of a SS Sub is like pocket change. But for the average working guy, I find reps give me all the fizz that gens give me, perhaps moreso, because it means I have less invested and more to play with on other things.

 

 

Actually.....

 

I've struggled financially to buy my Gens. Go back and read the writeup I did in the General Forum titled "A sea story of two gens and a rep".

 

I cut a damned lot of lawns when I was a teenager to buy my first Submariner. For under $400, When I was paid a dollar (one dollar) to hand cut a lawn with a push mower.,,, that watch is worth an easy $5K today. But it took a lot of damned hard work to get it. I remember thinking as I pushed a mower that I wasn't mowing lawns, I was building a Rolex.

 

It's always been a choice to invest rather than spend. If you have ten reps, you have $2000 invested in watches. That $2000 could have bought one Gen watch. If you choose that one watch carefully it'll be both a source of pride today, and an investment for later.

 

Truthfully, I have only started buying Reps *after* I succeeded a bit financially. That's because for the first time in my life I can afford to *throw away a little money* buying *toys* rather than needing to economize by *investing in commodities that will appreciate with interest*.

 

Let that sink in a bit.

 

 

 

Invest

 

or

 

Spend

 

 

That's the choice.

[Diver Dave 0]

Reps are legitimate tool watches. They're tools that tell you what time it is, and they look good while doing so.

They surely don't appreciate in value, but for only a few bucks you can have a 'garage' of well-built watches that you can use like gens or even harder.

 

For some reason I really like the car/garage analogy, haha.

 

I am a bit curious about the toolwatch approach. To me a toolwatch has to be able to withstand some moderately tough conditions, meaning at least water resistant in case I go fishing or swimming a bit in the ocean (not diving at all, less than 5m underwater, basically), and some resilience to scratches (hence sapphire is a must, and a decent steel). Are reps able to tick these boxes?

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to prove any point, I would love to buy a daily beater Explorer that I can wear no matter what I'm doing. But I don't think it would last.

 

 

When I was a pup, I worked on the deck of an oil rig. Well, I was a diver, so I worked under it, but you get the point,

 

With VERY rare exceptions, every rigger, driller, and roustabout on the rig wore a Rolex.

 

Why? They never ever broke, no matter what abuse they took.

 

What models? Most of the riggers and drillers wore a basic stainless steel Datejust on a Jubilee bracelet. I never saw any "sport" watches among these guys. They didn't buy watches as jewelry, they bought them as a watch. Beat all to hell, hands in grease all day. They worked then and those watches are still being worn someplace today.

 

 

ANY Rolex is a tool. The least "desirable" 1970's era plastic crystal Air King is a better watch than you can imagine.

And, today, you can find one for under $1000 with some work. Easy to buy at $1500. Best bargain in the world.

 

 

Still liking my Tudor Sub Rep though... so I understand the lure.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Diver Dave

[Abe Fromen 1,623]

 

 

Let that sink in a bit.

 

 

 

 

Nothing to sink in, thanks... we can agree to disagree.

[Diver Dave 0]

What I like is that now even Reps can be re-sold for about what you pay for them, so in the end you really lose almost nothing either way.

 

 

So, Beck or Vintage Speedster or ??

 

 

Smile,

 

Dave

Edited March 30, 2017 by Diver Dave

[Diver Dave 0]

 

 

Let that sink in a bit.

 

 

 

 

Nothing to sink in, thanks... we can agree to disagree.

 

 

If we were *really* smart, we would all buy Seiko's....

 

Smile,

 

Dave