General, controversial thoughts about reps and gens

[Genius 281]

Diver Dave: Great post. And I agree about Panerai, Some might say Breitling was the same as they were using just lowly ETA. But damn... my respect for Breitling has grown a lot. These watches actually DO have stunning finish and details. Super Avenger is just pure watch porn... not that I would even wear one. 48mm is just too much. But I wish they haven't taken the B01 route... I didn't quite like those new designs.

 

I'm just 45 so I grew up with the Rolex "luminova era". So I don't feel so strongly about the differences between, say 1675 and 16710. Or 1680 and 16610. They didn't change so dramatically, compared to these new designs anyway.

 

This is the best buy in the preowned market right now, imho. These retailed at $7K when they came out. Everybody loved the design... Inhouse movement (based on Lemania though) and absolutely superb finish. They stopped making these in 2012 and sold rest of the movements to Ulysse Nardin / Breguet or whatever... I got one... for 2K!!!!!!!!! And people pay 20K for ugly, tasteless douchebag shit like YM2. Crazy world indeed.

 

 

 

 

*Disclaimer: Pics are not mine. I'm just waiting for my BTR.

I had the rep of that, was a quality watch but having the 7750 meant sunken datewheel

[By-Tor 0]

Yes indeed. Of course. That was one flaw that never bothered me much.

 

It was bad SEL fitment or crooked dial markers that always killed the rep for me (generally speaking). :D

 

Like the "ultimate" BCE. The green dial markers were like chewing gum. Applied sloppily. And that was supposedly a great rep. Not.

 

And "ultimate" Sea Dweller 16600 that looked NOTHING like the real Sea Dweller. :D

[Genius 281]

Mine actually had a great dial and sel but datewheel killed it for me

[greg_r 81]

Great post By-Tor (and also great to see you around again!)

 

My attitude is maybe a little different. Watches are toys. Makes no difference whether they're rep or gen - still toys. I've bought the odd decent gen - usually when there's no good rep of something I particularly like - but it doesn't really make any difference to me when the watch I wear is gen or rep (other than the rep being a less costly toy, of course ;) )

[Genius 281]

Got this now instead

 

[By-Tor 0]

Yeah that's a great rep indeed. One of the best. I still have my white version.

 

@Greg: Yeah the old saying is true: The only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys. Or whatever... :D

[By-Tor 0]

I remember when the dealers hyped the "Ultimate Sea Dweller 16600". They posted pictures of the development and how they really put their mind into that release.

 

And then it was a piece of shit. Crooked CG's and on top of that the crystal looked NOTHING like the on the real Dweller (which is that watch's most important and most characteristic feature). One dealer suggested that I should write a praising review of it and get one watch for free. I refused. That was a horrible rep. I would't get one for free. Still people bought it because they believed the hype. When I said it was shit I wasn't the dealers' favorite boy any longer. :D

 

I was out of the game for years but I've been doing some reading... I read about the TC Sub 16610 development and also the Noob? or BP? version development of the 116610 fat lugs Submariner (v7 or whatever it is now). They have come a long way. I also saw people's franken 16613 at RWI. Amazing... very accurate. And very expensive to build.

 

But then again aspiring the "ultimate accuracy" comes with a price. Now the reps are more expensive and people may not enjoy the less accurate reps anymore. Like the BTR rep that I mentioned. It's the best I've seen, regarding the build quality. Skyland was pretty damn nice too. In the old days we were happy with some shit like "TW Best Sub". You'd laugh if I showed you the photos. :D But we genuinely enjoyed those $150 reps. They were just good knockoffs. We didn't even dream about TC/WM9 quality back then. But the rep scene was busy as hell and people had fun.

 

Maybe some of that fun has lost with all these super reps. Nothing less than dead on accurate isn't good enough anymore?

 

This RWG seems to be the only place which is (relatively) busy of the rep forums.

[NFleischer 4,355]

 

This original Swiss Avenger is also a favorite of mine. Runs like a top and is really well made. Under $400 when I bought it years ago.

 

I remember when I first joined By-Tor, the ceramic Hublot Tuiga was about $1000.

[Mr_B 2,401]

Great post By-Tor (and also great to see you around again!)

 

My attitude is maybe a little different. Watches are toys. Makes no difference whether they're rep or gen - still toys. I've bought the odd decent gen - usually when there's no good rep of something I particularly like - but it doesn't really make any difference to me when the watch I wear is gen or rep (other than the rep being a less costly toy, of course ;) )

I agree, I'd only really buy a Gen if it had a proper 7750, or was made of precious metals/two tone, the rep Noob sub is a great example of why, I wouldn't dream of buying a gen sub when the rep Looks so good and has a reliable Asian 2836 movement if looked after. Asian a7750s are good enough for a while but will probably fail eventually and that's why I could see myself buyin a decent gen with a 'proper' 7750.

[By-Tor 0]

NFleischer: Yeah that's a great one for sure... I remember that well. Strange that I never got one. Hmm... you still have that? Awesome. I love it.

 

Hublot... yeah well, I'm not saying anything about the brand. :D

 

@baldwin: I don't care for the new Sub but I'd be curious to see the rep. And maybe review it. How much they go for? Not willing to invest $500 on a watch that I would never wear.

[Mr_B 2,401]

NFleischer: Yeah that's a great one for sure... I remember that well. Strange that I never got one. Hmm... you still have that? Awesome. I love it.

 

Hublot... yeah well, I'm not saying anything about the brand. :D

 

@baldwin: I don't care for the new Sub but I'd be curious to see the rep. And maybe review it. How much they go for? Not willing to invest $500 on a watch that I would never wear.

V7 can be had for $300 from MR.

[NFleischer 4,355]

Yes By-Tor- wearing Yellow Avenger today.

[By-Tor 0]

Yes By-Tor- wearing Yellow Avenger today.

 

Brilliant! I feel like it's 2008 again. :D

 

Great to see you all familiar names... and great to be back. Too bad RWG.cc is pretty silent... lots of good friends there too.

 

I wouldn't mind a slugfest with Neil though. :D

[RUSH2112 11]

Never been into PAMs but I believe you. I never "got" them. I don't understand the attraction.

 

At least classic Rolexes are like old Mercedes SL's, 911's or E-Type Jags. By today's standards they're nothing special (as cars) but boy do they have "spirit". I totally understand why someone wants a 1680 or 1675 for $5K. But not for $25K... or a classic SL or Jag for $30K... but not for $100K.

 

I think the "modern classic" Rolly prices are not worth that much. In WUS sales forums 16710's were selling for $4K a few years ago.. now they're $7K. That's not justified. There are millions of them around.

 

 

If a Rolex has more than 4 numbers in it's model number, it's not of interest to me.

 

Really, having come from using a *real* tool watch (My 1665 was *issued* to me as a Saturation diver, from a pegboard rack of them, where each diver drew his equipment before deployment: I was given the opportunity t buy it when I left the company, and did), I view classic Rolex watches as exactly that: Tools. In Vietnam, the average Joe-Grunt bought a Glycene of Benrus in the exchange for $25bucks. A better watch was a Seiko, at a whopping $60. The next one up was a Zodiac Sea Wolf, which my Dad wore, which was $100. A Tudor sub was $125, and the "real" Sub or GMT was in the $200 range. A Warrant Officer helicopter pilot could buy a GMT with two weeks pay. Ditto a SEAL buying a Sub. These were the uses that these watches built their reputations on, not being worn by effete "desk divers" as a piece of jewelry. So coming myself as an observer of the Vietnam era watch buying habits (growing up in the service gave me as a kid the opportunity to know a shitload of my Dad's colleagues, and trust me: I knew then (and still remember) what watches they all wore). I never even then "got" dress Rolex watches, although I remember LBJ famously wearing a President. I still don't "get" Rolex dress watches, and I never will. Rolex to me = Sub, GMT, and Explorer. All with acrylic crystals.

 

Panerai is a brand, nothing more. There's zero practical difference between a Gen and a Rep. Hey, if you're going to decorate an ETA movement and stick it into a case made by a contractor, with a fancy box made in Taiwan (I dated the woman who sold them the boxes for a while, and they and she are both from Taiwan), you're just another assembler. They prance around testifying about their "heritage", which in effect was a failed design that competed poorly with the Rolex screw down crown patent, made by a compass and instrument company using Rolex movements, which petered out due to lack of demand post WW-II. There's a reason originals are rare: They SUCKED and NOBODY bought them. Today they sell the design de jour to idiots who mostly preen themselves in NYC clubs and hang out in the Hamptons. Man Buns can't be far behind.

 

Heuer post-TAG = utter shit. I was a Heuer AD at one time (running a scuba shop just 5 miles from their NJ headquarters, and had an AD account). Once "modern design", quartz, and TAG got into Heuer they were just another assembler of junk watches. Maybe they are better now, but I'll never buy one. Zero interest.

 

The most interesting watches made today are from China. Seagull movements are superb. They are making world class cases, and will soon be competing globally in the luxury market. Mark my words. They will move from proving their ability by building reps, to selling branded goods that are world class. These people are damned smart.

A bit long winded but what do you care if someone that works at a desk wears a tool watch and how do you know what their career was before that? Some of this is definitely a bit snobby

[Left Coast Guy 24]

I think this thread needs to be moved to the RWG Retirement Village. Or is this just proof that RWG is just one big retirement village....??

[markeym3 2]

I had a rep and a gen super avenger , both superb in fact when i had both I sold the gen and kept the rep , and the crown broke on the gen ..

[By-Tor 0]

I think this thread needs to be moved to the RWG Retirement Village. Or is this just proof that RWG is just one big retirement village....??

 

Really? I'm only 45. But I wouldn't mind retiring. :D

[dfq23 131]

The sub dial placement is off on the BTR rep too if you compare it to the gen.

 

The 9 and 6 sub dials overlap slightly on the gen with the textured 9 dial (which is the one repped) but not the rep.

 

I believe there is one where they don't overlap (older model perhaps) but they don't have the textured 9 dial.

 

So typical for some reps! Half one model mixed with half another!

Edited July 30, 2017 by dfq23

[By-Tor 0]

The sub dial placement is off on the BTR rep too if you compare it to the gen

 

Yes. Absolutely. Gen BTR uses a high end Lemania movement. It's not very accurate rep at all. You can't replicate these kind of watches properly... like El Primero-based ones etc. Just amazingly well built. It's not always about the accuracy. 99% of people have no idea what Ebel is. If the rep isn't all that accurate you can still enjoy a great looking watch. That was the whole point.

 

Long time ago I also had a fantasy Broad Arrow replica with Seagull ST-19 movement and acrylic crystal. It looked and felt like an expensive watch. Nicely decorated Seagull with glass back and Omega logos. Actually it was much nicer than the gen Broad Arrow. Despite being fantasy it didn't prevent me from enjoying it fully.

 

PS: I'll put this review back up one of these days.

 

[dfq23 131]

The sub dial placement is off on the BTR rep too if you compare it to the gen

 

Yes. Absolutely. Gen BTR uses a high end Lemania movement. It's not very accurate rep at all. Just amazingly well built. It's not always about the accuracy. 99% of people have no idea what Ebel is. If the rep isn't all that accurate you can still enjoy a great looking watch. That was the whole point.

 

I also had a fantasy Broad Arrow replica with Seagull ST-19 movement and acrylic crystal. It looked and felt like an expensive watch. Nicely decorated Seagull with glass back and Omega logos. Actually it was much nicer than the gen. Despite being fantasy it didn't prevent me from enjoying it fully.

 

 

The other half's brother races power boats and used to be sponsored by Ebel so has a gen 1911 disco black dial. I compared it to the rep one I had and only differences I could see were the pushers were a fraction longer on the gen, date wheel font (fixable with a gen ETA wheel) and the bracelet did feel much better quality on the gen.

 

Rep was about 120 quid from Tony, gen new was about two and a half grand

[By-Tor 0]

Yep. Discovery rep is one of the best ever. No doubt.

 

I wrote the review of the rep when it came out back in 2008.

http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?showtopic=109

 

I like the BTR so much that I just purchased a gen. Friggin' amazing watch and it's crazy CHEAP right now in the preowned market.

[Left Coast Guy 24]

I think this thread needs to be moved to the RWG Retirement Village. Or is this just proof that RWG is just one big retirement village....??

 

Really? I'm only 45. But I wouldn't mind retiring. :D

 

Maybe you just have an "old soul"... :ohwell:

[By-Tor 0]

I think this thread needs to be moved to the RWG Retirement Village. Or is this just proof that RWG is just one big retirement village....??

 

Really? I'm only 45. But I wouldn't mind retiring. :D

 

Maybe you just have an "old soul"... :ohwell:

 

Could be. Almost all my favorite rock bands started their career before I was even born. And even back then when I was 20 I thought gangsta rap and techno was shit. Now I loathe the new Rolex designs. I guess I've always been an "old soul". :D

[RandomGuy 0]

"You can't replicate these kind of watches properly... like El Primero-based ones etc. Just amazingly well built. It's not always about the accuracy. 99% of people have no idea what Ebel is"

 

I've been looking at cal 134 1911s for a while, for this very reason. Seems like one of the few $2k El Primero options around, and only a WIS would recognize it. But a 1997 model has a case size of only 38mm is concerning - does it "wear larger?" Maybe a good example of a situation where picking up the rep first can help me decide...

 

 

[By-Tor 0]

Hey RandomGuy. Same issue for me too. The old Ebel Chronographs have certain "vintage charm" and that 36.600 bph El Primero is a masterpiece. But yes... they are too small, unfortunately. At least for a bigger guy like me. That's why they're so cheap. If they were 42mm you wouldn't get them for $2K. That's the market right now... for ALL watches.

 

This is probably the model you're referring to?

 

https://monochrome-w...ic-chronograph/