black263 228 Posted December 30, 2017 One of the commonest questions asked on the forum is "Which TD should I buy xxxxx from" The commonest answer is "Fuck off and do your research". The second commonest answer is "Any TD can get you that watch" However, I believe that it's more complex than that and the following are my personal thoughts. It's not quite true that all dealers can get the same watch, but most definitely not all dealers provide the same service. First, while most dealers can get any watch on the market, there are one or two that don't offer that service. BK, for example supplies a limited range of upgraded models; Narikaa sources his watches from Thailand, and again supplies a limited range. The China based dealers can, however get pretty well anything that's repped. Some big guys have huge websites which claim to offer just about every watch on the market. The smaller dealers generally have poor, or no, websites, but can still get pretty well any watch, and are more amenable to finding you the "out of production" model you may seek. The general advice is to send details of what you want, with a photograph, and see if it's available. A common complaint is ordering from a website, only to find (after paying) that the watch isn't actually available, whatever the website seems to say. On my second point, there are some major differences between the dealers. All are trusted, but they will also follow their terms and conditions. (You may have to do a bit of digging here. Some quote them in their section of the forum, and some only in their websites) Some dealers will cover customs seizures and some won't. If you go with the latter, they may be cheaper, but if your watch is seized, it's no good complaining to a moderator that the dealer is complying with the T&Cs by refusing a replacement. Some offer triangular shipping to avoid difficult customs areas, (and charge more for the shipping) and some don't. Of those who don't, some will flatly refuse to send a watch to a difficult customs area; others will send it but it's tough if it get seized. Some offer wholesale prices where the watch you get is as it comes from the factory with no QC checks by the dealer, and no recourse if the watch is DOA; or you can pay more and get the checks. Reviews show very different approaches to the QC process. Some dealers wait for you to accept QC before sending the watch. At least one only gives you 24 hours from the time they send the QC, and then automatically send the watch if you haven't replied. If you then find something you don't like - tough - you had your 24 hours so you're now deemed by them to have been fully satisfied. Some are reported to be very thorough: some are quite cursory. At least one dealer has been known to reject a watch at the QC stage, before sending QC pics, as they didn't consider the watch worth sending to the buyer, and replaced it without further ado. (And as a buyer, you need to be clear why we have a QC process. Read in the sig below) EDIT 2019. I've seen reports of faults on watches where the offending area was "accidentally" not shown on QC Pics. Make sure that all parts are visible on the pictures, and ask for more if unsure. In particular, I always ask for the date set to 28 which is the best for showing date wheel off-centering, and for the hands at 10.10, and 8.20 to make sure there is nothing obscured on the dial. This also gives confidence that the QC pic is of a watch in front of them, and not some stock photo. Also, be very wary of Timegrapher pictures. There have been several reports of these being faked, with a couple of examples of different watches with exactly the same Timegrapher display. How do you do that? Have a look here. https://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?/topic/101188-how-to-turn-a-low-beat-invicta-with-crap-timekeeping-into-a-high-beat-within-cosc-standards-using-only-a-timegrapher-and-10-mins-of-time/&tab=comments#comment-1616736 There is also the question of warranty. One dealer gives a full year warranty, one gives a 6 month warranty on the movement, but specifically excludes parts such as bracelet, crystal, crown etc. Some don't offer any form of warranty (although there are reports of such dealers undertaking repairs FOC, even without the warranty being in the T&Cs) If this is important, it's always best to check with the dealer to get in writing what is or isn't covered. Moderators can't help with a claim for something that is excluded in the T&Cs, and you won't get much support here either. Some will take paypal, some credit cards and most will take WU, often giving a discount that will cover the cost of sending the money. Don't be surprised if dealers won't take PP for new customers. The forum is full of tales of purchasers charging back PP to scam the dealer. And when that happens, the dealer may well have their PP account frozen, affecting all the other members who have payments going through. Personally, I use WU paying in cash at my local outlet. I've bought dozens that way, and never had a problem and the discounts often make this the cheapest payment method. Where a dealer takes PP, it is usual to add together the cost of the watch, and shipping, and then charge a percentage to cover the PP charges. 5% is a typical figure. If you pay by CC or bank transfer, don't be surprised by the extra charges added at each end to cover international payment and currency exchange and you will probably have to pay all of these charges. (The dealer expects to end up with the quoted price in his/her pocket. You cover all the extras and these can be significant) If you ask for a refund, don't be surprised to get back less than you paid. If a watch is $200 that's what the dealer expects to get. You will have to pay any and all processing charges, so you may end up paying , say $210 including processing. The dealer refund will only be the original $200, and then, from that, you will have to pay the processing charges coming bsck. So you end up with $190, having paid out $210. Suck it up. If you aren't prepared for that, you can buy a different watch, and you'll get the $200 credited to it. If you're still not happy, find a different hobby. Using a Trusted Dealer means that you will be treated fairly, and get the watch you ordered at the price you paid, in accordance with the stated terms and conditions. or an acceptable alternative deal, with the recourse of going to a moderator for arbitration if something goes wrong.. But you still have to do your research. So the answer to the question is "The very best TD for you is the one that can get the watch you want, at a price you like, with T&Cs that you are comfortable with" And only you can decide that. Edit. Updated 22 Feb 18. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Foxindebox 462 Posted December 30, 2017 ^^^ this x1000 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RUSH2112 11 Posted December 30, 2017 I agree but your info sounds suspiciously like “fuck off and do your own research” in long form. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
deju 1,868 Posted December 30, 2017 1 hour ago, black263 said: "The very best TD for you is the one that can get the watch you want, at a price you like, with T&Cs that you are comfortable with" And only you can decide that. Fuck off and do your research ... I think this should be stickied!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
black263 228 Posted December 30, 2017 1 hour ago, RUSH2112 said: I agree but your info sounds suspiciously like “fuck off and do your own research” in long form. It's more like "This is why you should fuck off and do your own research" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GenTLe 1,501 Posted December 30, 2017 Further from the explanations of the good black263, there is something that only with experience you can get: there are TDs that are more careful about the QCs and others (even some really well regarded ones) that simply don't care at all to check what they're proposing you. I have had (from the same TD) watches with completely nonfunctional power reserve (mounted badly in the movement), with stuck pushers (after I asked him to really take care to get a good example because it wasn't even for me), falling hands... And sometimes after making this guy to notice the problem, having the exact same one re-proposed with the claim it was a different one... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glaude 1,615 Posted December 30, 2017 5 hours ago, deju said: I think this should be stickied!! I think too or added to the TD list post. Anyway I'll link this post to newbies any time I'll have the chance ! Great job ! So to resume the aboves posts : "The very best TD for you is the one that can get the watch you want, at a price you like, with T&Cs that you are comfortable with, so do you own fucking research" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
iamonline 0 Posted December 30, 2017 My favorite TDs are InTime and Toro. I am in the US, and they are tops in my book. Either one or the other always got the stuff I wanted. Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Luxuracer 14 Posted December 30, 2017 11 hours ago, black263 said: One of the commonest questions asked on the forum is "Which TD should I buy xxxxx from" The commonest answer is "Fuck off and do your research". The second commonest answer is "Any TD can get you that watch" However, I believe that it's more complex than that and the following are my personal thoughts. It's not quite true that all dealers can get the same watch, but most definitely not all dealers provide the same service. First, while most dealers can get any watch on the market, there are one or two that don't offer that service. BK, for example supplies a limited range of upgraded models; Narikaa sources his watches from Thailand, and again supplies a limited range. The China based dealers can, however get pretty well anything that's repped. Some big guys have huge ranges available, with websites to match. The smaller dealers generally have poor websites, but can still get pretty well any watch, and are more amenable to finding you the "out of production" model you may seek. The general advice is to send details of what you want, with a photograph, and see if it's available. On my second point, there are some major differences between the dealers. All are trusted, but they will also follow their terms and conditions. (You may have to do a bit of digging here. Some quote them in their section of the forum, and some only in their websites) Some dealers will cover customs seizures and some won't. If you go with the latter, they may be cheaper, but if your watch is seized, it's no good complaining to a moderator that the dealer is complying with the T&Cs, by refusing a replacement. Some offer triangular shipping to avoid difficult customs areas, and some don't. Of those who don't, some will flatly refuse to send a watch to a difficult customs area; others will send it but it's tough if it get seized. Some offer wholesale prices where the watch you get is as it comes from the factory with no QC checks by the dealer, and no recourse if the watch is DOA; or you can pay more and get the checks. Some will take paypal, some credit cards and most will take WU, often giving a discount that will cover the cost of sending the money. Where a dealer takes PP, it is usual to add together the cost of the watch, and shipping, and then charge a percentage to cover the PP charges. 5% is a typical figure. If you pay by CC don't be surprised by the extra charges added at each end to cover international payment and currency exchange and you will probably have to pay all of these charges. (The dealer expects to end up with the quoted price in his/her pocket. You cover all the extras and these can be significant) Using a Trusted Dealer means that you will be treated fairly, and get the watch you ordered at the price you paid, in accordance with the stated terms and conditions. or an acceptable alternative deal, with the recourse of going to a moderator for arbitration if something goes wrong.. But you still have to do your research. So the answer to the question is "The very best TD for you is the one that can get the watch you want, at a price you like, with T&Cs that you are comfortable with" And only you can decide that. I could not say it any better myself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
OSR90 0 Posted January 13, 2018 Well said mate! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MarkR 0 Posted February 22, 2018 Nice one, as a newbie, this summary/info is spot on and helpful, thanks! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chixisigma 461 Posted March 14, 2018 On 30/12/2017 at 23:42, GenTLe said: Further from the explanations of the good black263, there is something that only with experience you can get: there are TDs that are more careful about the QCs and others (even some really well regarded ones) that simply don't care at all to check what they're proposing you. I have had (from the same TD) watches with completely nonfunctional power reserve (mounted badly in the movement), with stuck pushers (after I asked him to really take care to get a good example because it wasn't even for me), falling hands... And sometimes after making this guy to notice the problem, having the exact same one re-proposed with the claim it was a different one... Perhaps you should explicitly share your experiences to prevent others having to go through the same thing? If veteran members aren't willing or able to share this kind of info, then what sort of community is this? Is having bad experiences a rite of passage round here? Just curious as to the general mindset. Incidentally, I got my first rep this week (Noov V7s Hulk) from MR and bloody love it. Excellent experience from beginning to end. Feedback and review to follow... Chi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joyjoyk 0 Posted March 14, 2018 12 minutes ago, Chixisigma said: Perhaps you should explicitly share your experiences to prevent others having to go through the same thing? If veteran members aren't willing or able to share this kind of info, then what sort of community is this? Is having bad experiences a rite of passage round here? Just curious as to the general mindset. Incidentally, I got my first rep this week (Noov V7s Hulk) from MR and bloody love it. Excellent experience from beginning to end. Feedback and review to follow... Chi Bad experiences are not a rite of passage here. Bad feedback has usually already been shared in the TD's feedback sections by the veterans. It's difficult to keep retyping a whole experience when it has already been done - hence the "do your own research first" stance. Besides, it's your money no? You need to be comfortable with the general picture of the TD, and their feedback section is the best place to start. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Noobv10 0 Posted March 14, 2018 19 minutes ago, Chixisigma said: Perhaps you should explicitly share your experiences to prevent others having to go through the same thing? If veteran members aren't willing or able to share this kind of info, then what sort of community is this? Is having bad experiences a rite of passage round here? Just curious as to the general mindset. Incidentally, I got my first rep this week (Noov V7s Hulk) from MR and bloody love it. Excellent experience from beginning to end. Feedback and review to follow... Chi I just ordered the same watch from him. He shipped it yesterday! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glaude 1,615 Posted March 14, 2018 25 minutes ago, Chixisigma said: Perhaps you should explicitly share your experiences to prevent others having to go through the same thing? If veteran members aren't willing or able to share this kind of info, then what sort of community is this? Is having bad experiences a rite of passage round here? Just curious as to the general mindset. Incidentally, I got my first rep this week (Noov V7s Hulk) from MR and bloody love it. Excellent experience from beginning to end. Feedback and review to follow... Chi In addition to what JoyJoyk said, that's not because someone had a bad experience with a TD that the TD is bad or that every experience with this TD will always be bad. Some of us are more picky about little details, some of us have the eyes to spot a detail that matter to them others will not have such an eye for that or will not even care about details. If you have a bad experience with a TD, you resolve the matter with him or with the mods if you can't do it with him and then you move on to another one for your next purchase. You'll find people, experienced saying all the good they can on one TD and dislike another and you'll find an exact opposite veteran member. In the end they're trusted for a reason and you have a wide range of choices. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chixisigma 461 Posted March 14, 2018 23 minutes ago, Joyjoyk said: Bad experiences are not a rite of passage here. Bad feedback has usually already been shared in the TD's feedback sections by the veterans. It's difficult to keep retyping a whole experience when it has already been done - hence the "do your own research first" stance. Besides, it's your money no? You need to be comfortable with the general picture of the TD, and their feedback section is the best place to start. Acknowledged. I guess if the OP I quoted was outlining a problem with a repeat offender TD, they either wouldn't be a TD here any more or they'd have a reputation to match. 10 minutes ago, Glaude said: In addition to what JoyJoyk said, that's not because someone had a bad experience with a TD that the TD is bad or that every experience with this TD will always be bad. Some of us are more picky about little details, some of us have the eyes to spot a detail that matter to them others will not have such an eye for that or will not even care about details. If you have a bad experience with a TD, you resolve the matter with him or with the mods if you can't do it with him and then you move on to another one for your next purchase. You'll find people, experienced saying all the good they can on one TD and dislike another and you'll find an exact opposite veteran member. In the end they're trusted for a reason and you have a wide range of choices. Thanks for your insights, Glaude. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fatarms 7,776 Posted March 14, 2018 1 hour ago, Chixisigma said: Perhaps you should explicitly share your experiences to prevent others having to go through the same thing? If veteran members aren't willing or able to share this kind of info, then what sort of community is this? Is having bad experiences a rite of passage round here? Just curious as to the general mindset. Incidentally, I got my first rep this week (Noov V7s Hulk) from MR and bloody love it. Excellent experience from beginning to end. Feedback and review to follow... Chi I'll answer your question as best I can with my 6 years experience. Bad experiences are by no means a rite of passage. You may have to discern between bad experiences with TD's vs. bad experiences on the forum itself. First, you'll get far harsher treatment on the whole by senior members here for asking questions that have been answered before. The reason most cited is searching. But, and I do this in all new members defense, the search function isn't always usable for all searches. For example, if I want to look at watches made by the ARF factory, I would search "ARF" just like I would on google. But this isn't enough characters for the search function to work (try it yourself ^^ up there.) If a new member isn't familiar with all their models, then how are they to search the ARF factory? If they search "ARF factory," they only get results for the word factory. Again, senior members, try it yourself. On the flip side, if there are a large number of negative experiences with a particular dealer, this is noticed by the moderating team at which point a dealer may be demoted from a TD to a probationary dealer. I've seen this a few times. Some have recovered, others have not. On the whole, if a TD is giving satisfactory service to most of their buyers, they will stay a TD on the forum. They have incentive to stay TD here as well as other forums to have tens of thousands, if not more on other forums, of potential customers. They do this by resolving issues should they arise. A TD will only stay a TD if they continue to have satisfactory service according to their stated terms of service. This is where your research is required and is noted in the OP. See what a TD is going to stand by and if they replace due to customs issues or whatever may arise. Asking the OP to cite their experiences is only going to give you one person's opinions on any given TD out of 94,000 members currently. This is where the feedback forums come into play. If you like what you see or hear from a TD after emailing them, you now have a resource to see how they perform by looking through their feedback. Keep in mind two things here: 1.) I would estimate no more than 10% of purchases result in feedback. I don't think I'm too off on my estimate either. 2.) Fall back on the thought that if a TD is not performing up to par, and even if negative feedback is not left, moderators will know via PM's that a TD is not fulfilling and supporting orders as they should. At which point they would become flagged by the moderating team and would be put on probationary status if needed. Senior members get frustrated with noob questions because we've been here for a while. We've played he game longer than a new member who has google (loaded with scammers, absolutely loaded) and only used that to research watches. The moderating team here has amassed the best of the best dealers here into a list that is in all ways, superior to any google search. Trust us, trust your moderating team on the forum. Try to have a thick skin if a member berates you for asking a question that has been answered before. It's only because we've seen these questions almost daily in one form or another. You've found one of the best places in the world to find a rep watch, and if you stick around and read for a week or two before you order, you can't go wrong. I hope this helps. And welcome to our world, soon to be yours, and the demise of your spare cash 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chixisigma 461 Posted March 14, 2018 20 minutes ago, fatarms said: ...I hope this helps. And welcome to our world, soon to be yours, and the demise of your spare cash Thank you for such a thorough response. I agree completely on the functionality of the search bar. Seems to throw out error msgs rather frequently too. I received my 2nd rep today actually - Tudor Pelagos Black V6F - looks great (again). So I now have a personal experience and opinion on two of our TDs. Useful, I guess. I remember getting here a couple of weeks back, after nearly buying a dodgy looking YM2 from an instagram vendor and I couldn't believe my luck. So excited. Wanted to order a watch immediately. The vets should remember that initial feeling of finding this place whilst they're crucifying NOOBs. Or not! Chi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glaude 1,615 Posted March 14, 2018 10 hours ago, Chixisigma said: The vets should remember that initial feeling of finding this place whilst they're crucifying NOOBs. Or not! There are two types of noob : the one that genuinely just asking a question, innocent, just haven't done his homework, generally those are the one that post questions in their introduction post, and that usually goes fine. And then there's those who post everywhere, multiple time, asking the same question, not even saying hello, wanting to be spoon fed etc... those are the one who get flamed, but even them can become good members if they catch up with the mentality of this board. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GenTLe 1,501 Posted March 15, 2018 On 3/14/2018 at 03:22, Chixisigma said: Acknowledged. I guess if the OP I quoted was outlining a problem with a repeat offender TD That is the case. and therefore I stopped to use that TD some time ago. He has been good for other thing, but not for the QC he should do to a watch BEFORE to propose it. @Mary Watch (or Ryan at InTime, TD over RWI) in general does this kind of checks on a watch before to propose it to you: something like winding it (and checking it doesn't do a bad noise, sign of problems), checking that the PR works accordingly, checking that a chronograph starts, stops and reset properly etc etc. Also Tim @watchfinder is good in this sense. Others just take the watch from the factory, give it a short look aesthetically only but don't check it at all in a functional way, and send you pics... If the problem is cosmetic you can spot it. If it's functional then you'll get a lemon. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chixisigma 461 Posted March 15, 2018 2 hours ago, GenTLe said: If the problem is cosmetic you can spot it. If it's functional then you'll get a lemon Really good info. I really like the vibes Mr.TimeZone has been throwing out since they became a TD here so keen to give them a go for the next rep. However, I've heard several good things now about Mary and Tim so perhaps they can do the ones after...! Chi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sremorris 0 Posted May 22, 2018 Thank you, very useful Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mossback 0 Posted May 22, 2018 I’m a noob myself after reading sticky’s over several days I learned enough to start. What I found most valuable was to pick a TD that best fits your needs. My interest was only one watch, Rolex sub date. I learned BK is the man to mod Rolex and Mary fit my exact requirement as a TD. Over the weekend I ordered my first rep from Mary. I also fell in love with an Omega a senior member listed. I’m wearing it now and thoroughly enjoy it. For Chi, I’m a moderator on an Expat forum. We experience the same thing. There are several common questions covered clearly many times so we also politely request noobs read then ask more specific questions. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
black263 228 Posted May 23, 2018 11 hours ago, Mossback said: we also politely request noobs read then ask more specific questions. In the flame free zone, that's what happens here. Elsewhere in the forum, game on. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
