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Mr Stubbs

PAM 616 Carbotech VSF V3

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Mr Stubbs

Béton Brut

After wearing this icon of non-conformity for more than a month, here are  my somewhat random thoughts.

IMG_3614.jpg

Panerai's dip into the waters of high tech industrial fashion is polarizing, from a company famous for beautiful but polarizing designs.  You either love it or loathe it.  I'm sure it appeals to those who share a love of beton brut architecture and modernist design, more than fans of art nouveau.  At 47mm with 26mm lug width, the 616 wears large because it is large, and the signature crown guard ensures that you will never move your wrist without knowing exactly what brand you're wearing.   But the opinion-dividing aspect is the eponymous  Carbotech material.  The  weight reduction over stainless steel or bronze is significant, which should be applauded, but the resulting unique matte black finish presents an aspect that only an engineer could love.  Yellow gold, rose gold, platinum, even the luster of buffed stainless are universal signifiers of quality.  The notion that a material resembling charred softwood is not just desirable, but even aspirational, is a very hard sell.  Especially on a $15,000 watch.

Unless you are buying a replica at a fraction of the cost.

From Mr TimeZone (and PureTime):

Size: 47mm x 17mm Movement: Updated custom designed Asian automatic movement to match the genuine PAN P.9000 movement at 28800vph, same balance wheel position as genuine P.9000 movement.

Functions: Hours, minutes, sub-seconds and date display. Independent adjustable hour hand which allows you to turn it clockwise or anti-clockwise to adjust hours and date easily, same adjusting as genuine movement.

Case: Updated real carbotech case, crown guard, bezel. Same carbotech as genuine, unique pattern on each case same material as PAN Carbotech.

Bezel: Uni-directional rotating carbotech bezel, updated texture, same as genuine.

Dial: Superlumed dial and hands (lumed with genuine Super-LumiNova). Flush cannon pinion, semi-invisible “CD Lines” on sub dial same as genuine

Crystal: Scratch-proof sapphire crystal with colorless anti-reflection coating same as genuine

Strap & Clasp: Black rubber strap (blue logo same as genuine) with tang buckle (correct engraving)

My impressions of the V3 replica...

For someone comfortable wearing 47mm watches, the first thing you will notice is the weight reduction.  You must re-learn to appreciate that not every high-quality material is heavy.

The vintage style lume is well done and perfectly consistent between the hands, markers and numerals.

To my eye the cheerful blue highlights, gold timing marks in the upper right quadrant and all the ecru lume matches Panerai’s colours perfectly. Well done VSF.

IMG_3617.jpg

The anti-reflective coating could be better.  Combined with the changing reflectivity of the dark carbotech layers, this is an extremely difficult watch to photograph.  Never mind take a 'beauty' shot.

The ability to set the hour hand independently, as per gen, seems like overkill.  But it is a feature on the gen and works as it should here, so more kudos to the designers at VSF. 

IMG_3615.jpg

The real charm of the watch is the almost organic wood-grain appearance.  Here you can clearly see the three shades of carbon sheets used in the V3 rep.  The randomization makes it appear to be more layers than there are.

IMG_3611.jpg

The crown guard is nice and tight, with no sloppiness, and the REG TM engraving easily passes for the stamped genuine markings.

IMG_3609.jpg

The machining on V3 of this watch is flawless. There is no detectable erosion or chipping on the curves and no edge delamination. Well done VSF.

IMG_3612.jpg

The titanium caseback is a thing of beauty. The engraving is crisp, correctly coded to Panerai's standard, and the 'pig' logo is perfect.  Easily the best engraving I’ve come across on a replica.

IMG_3600.jpg

Only an expert eye would recognize this is a replica P9000.  Balance wheel is in the correct seven o'clock position.  

I’ve studied Ales guide and photos: Without a genuine P9000 movement to compare side by side, I say this version is as good as it will get.

IMG_3581.jpg

To me, the lugs are the only disappointment of this replica.  They are neither drilled all the way through, nor threaded.  This rep uses standard spring bars. 

What you see on the outside of the lugs are fake, shallow holes.  I imagine the intention is to enhance the strength at these points.

IMG_3593.jpg

I give the VSF V3 replica a 9 out of 10. 

This VSF V3 replica will never be a big money-maker.  It has improvements to the movement including separate hour hand adjustment, improved carbon sheet randomization and improved case set machining. 

If you don't pick one up now, there may never be a better replica of this watch.

 IMG_3455.jpg

As a designer I appreciate the 616 Carbotech as another fascinating part of Panerai history.  Albeit one that may never achieve the respect it deserves.  

Exactly the sort of watch that deserves a place in a collection of great replicas.  

 

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SamsonAusKognito

Nice review :)

It really is a sad thing that black watches with high end materials like ceramic but especially carbon don't get the recognition they deserve.
I have a few carbon watches each over the 3k € mark and all my family and friends told my they look like toy watches, or very average ... pretty devastating.

But to me the highest win of carbon is the lightness as you have mentioned, it makes a perfect daily wearer and it will look like new even years after wear.

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brang1

great review, but that thing is like a barn on the wrist

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Haltec

@OP - nice review 

I really like effort that factories put into some models like this..   

As much I wanted to puchase that model - I am having issues that I can't pull 15k watch yet.   

But then - I also don't have urge to match my casing with my driveshaft. 

;-)

Kudos to that. 

 

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VMSG

Nice review, thanks!

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pstar_1980

Nice watch! Thanks for sharing details! Enjoy!!

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Glaude

Résultat de recherche d'images pour "applause gif"

Very very nice review ! Thanks for sharing !

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raspymcnasty

whats your wrist size? do you feel like the case would be prone to cracking?

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Adrian8741

Thanks looks superb, it's on my shortlist of watches I'd love to own in the next few months. Thanks for the review and pics. 

Also, might not be my place to say it, but I think the watch really suits you judging from both your choice of car and laptop - both the RX-8 and Alienware are good examples of something both unconventional and awesome in their respective fields! 

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Mr Stubbs
On 09/07/2018 at 15:14, raspymcnasty said:

whats your wrist size? do you feel like the case would be prone to cracking?

My wrist is just shy of seven inches.

 I know that carbon-material cases can crack if they have manufacturing flaws. This version by VSF appears to have addressed that. Designing the lugs with enclosed ends to the lug holes shows  they are aware of potential weak spots.  And the rest of the case still shows no sign of delamination or wear marks, after many strap changes and  months of continuous use.

:thumbsup2:

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BadApple

As a very big fan of PAMs  I am I find it a monstrosity. 

However you can't take away the fact it is a 10/10 review @Mr Stubbs

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Mr Stubbs
On 12/07/2018 at 18:25, Adrian8741 said:

Thanks looks superb, it's on my shortlist of watches I'd love to own in the next few months. Thanks for the review and pics. 

Also, might not be my place to say it, but I think the watch really suits you judging from both your choice of car and laptop - both the RX-8 and Alienware are good examples of something both unconventional and awesome in their respective fields! 

Thank you Adrian.  I sincerely appreciate the compliment. You absolutely nailed it. 

I’ve always been unconventional, with some rewarding design choices and some... less so.   ;)

The best part of replica watches is that you can dare to be different and own some extremely interesting designs. They are out there! :thumbsup:

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McGilli

@Mr Stubbs Nice review. But... All the talk about lighter weight materials compared to Bronze etc etc... and... What is the weight of this watch? With carbon and titanium that has to be fairly light? 

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Mr Stubbs

 

6 hours ago, McGilli said:

@Mr Stubbs Nice review. But... All the talk about lighter weight materials compared to Bronze etc etc... and... What is the weight of this watch? With carbon and titanium that has to be fairly light? 

It’s about 145 grams with the rubber strap 135 grams on my own leather strap. Not a featherweight like a  composite Richard Mille (which has a comparatively  thin case) but for a thick case measuring 47 x 15mm it counts as a lightweight. 

You’ve got me curious.  I’ll compare it to the steel PVD and steel rose gold versions, when I get home from vacation. 

Okay... going to create a new  post now!  :D

 

 

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Mr Stubbs
1 hour ago, BADAPPLE said:

As a very big fan of PAMs  I am I find it a monstrosity. 

However you can't take away the fact it is a 10/10 review @Mr Stubbs

That’s fair comment. I love the Radiomir cushion case, and the 372 is my favourite PAM design. But if  you look closely at PAM submersibles, there is an enormous chunk of empty ‘real estate’ on those broad bezels that the designers struggle to fill.

The  carbotech adds visual interest to that broad bezel with a cool iridescence.  Same thing with a Bronzo: If they didn’t  corrode in an interesting pattern, they would just look like a porthole with a bezel like a toilet seat.  But I still love them.  :lol:

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synaptyx

The best part of replica watches is that you can dare to be different and own some extremely interesting designs. They are out there! :thumbsup:
Was thinking this the other night whilst staring at pics of this very watch! Thanks for the review. Carbotech now firmly on ‘the list.’

Cheers!



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Ben1121
On 21/06/2018 at 23:32, Mr Stubbs said:

Béton Brut

After wearing this icon of non-conformity for more than a month, here are  my somewhat random thoughts.

IMG_3614.jpg

Panerai's dip into the waters of high tech industrial fashion is polarizing, from a company famous for beautiful but polarizing designs.  You either love it or loathe it.  I'm sure it appeals to those who share a love of beton brut architecture and modernist design, more than fans of art nouveau.  At 47mm with 26mm lug width, the 616 wears large because it is large, and the signature crown guard ensures that you will never move your wrist without knowing exactly what brand you're wearing.   But the opinion-dividing aspect is the eponymous  Carbotech material.  The  weight reduction over stainless steel or bronze is significant, which should be applauded, but the resulting unique matte black finish presents an aspect that only an engineer could love.  Yellow gold, rose gold, platinum, even the luster of buffed stainless are universal signifiers of quality.  The notion that a material resembling charred softwood is not just desirable, but even aspirational, is a very hard sell.  Especially on a $15,000 watch.

Unless you are buying a replica at a fraction of the cost.

From Mr TimeZone (and PureTime):

Size: 47mm x 17mm Movement: Updated custom designed Asian automatic movement to match the genuine PAN P.9000 movement at 28800vph, same balance wheel position as genuine P.9000 movement.

Functions: Hours, minutes, sub-seconds and date display. Independent adjustable hour hand which allows you to turn it clockwise or anti-clockwise to adjust hours and date easily, same adjusting as genuine movement.

Case: Updated real carbotech case, crown guard, bezel. Same carbotech as genuine, unique pattern on each case same material as PAN Carbotech.

Bezel: Uni-directional rotating carbotech bezel, updated texture, same as genuine.

Dial: Superlumed dial and hands (lumed with genuine Super-LumiNova). Flush cannon pinion, semi-invisible “CD Lines” on sub dial same as genuine

Crystal: Scratch-proof sapphire crystal with colorless anti-reflection coating same as genuine

Strap & Clasp: Black rubber strap (blue logo same as genuine) with tang buckle (correct engraving)

My impressions of the V3 replica...

For someone comfortable wearing 47mm watches, the first thing you will notice is the weight reduction.  You must re-learn to appreciate that not every high-quality material is heavy.

The vintage style lume is well done and perfectly consistent between the hands, markers and numerals.

To my eye the cheerful blue highlights, gold timing marks in the upper right quadrant and all the ecru lume matches Panerai’s colours perfectly. Well done VSF.

IMG_3617.jpg

The anti-reflective coating could be better.  Combined with the changing reflectivity of the dark carbotech layers, this is an extremely difficult watch to photograph.  Never mind take a 'beauty' shot.

The ability to set the hour hand independently, as per gen, seems like overkill.  But it is a feature on the gen and works as it should here, so more kudos to the designers at VSF. 

IMG_3615.jpg

The real charm of the watch is the almost organic wood-grain appearance.  Here you can clearly see the three shades of carbon sheets used in the V3 rep.  The randomization makes it appear to be more layers than there are.

IMG_3611.jpg

The crown guard is nice and tight, with no sloppiness, and the REG TM engraving easily passes for the stamped genuine markings.

IMG_3609.jpg

The machining on V3 of this watch is flawless. There is no detectable erosion or chipping on the curves and no edge delamination. Well done VSF.

IMG_3612.jpg

The titanium caseback is a thing of beauty. The engraving is crisp, correctly coded to Panerai's standard, and the 'pig' logo is perfect.  Easily the best engraving I’ve come across on a replica.

IMG_3600.jpg

Only an expert eye would recognize this is a replica P9000.  Balance wheel is in the correct seven o'clock position.  

I’ve studied Ales guide and photos: Without a genuine P9000 movement to compare side by side, I say this version is as good as it will get.

IMG_3581.jpg

To me, the lugs are the only disappointment of this replica.  They are neither drilled all the way through, nor threaded.  This rep uses standard spring bars. 

What you see on the outside of the lugs are fake, shallow holes.  I imagine the intention is to enhance the strength at these points.

IMG_3593.jpg

I give the VSF V3 replica a 9 out of 10. 

This VSF V3 replica will never be a big money-maker.  It has improvements to the movement including separate hour hand adjustment, improved carbon sheet randomization and improved case set machining. 

If you don't pick one up now, there may never be a better replica of this watch.

 IMG_3455.jpg

As a designer I appreciate the 616 Carbotech as another fascinating part of Panerai history.  Albeit one that may never achieve the respect it deserves.  

Exactly the sort of watch that deserves a place in a collection of great replicas.  

 

Bravo

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stfrance

Great review.. I have some questions on the watch. 

Now, all got solved..

Thanks..

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Superspark69

It certainly is a great rep!, great review!

Love mine!

lpI7b.jpg
lWrop.jpg

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btocamelo
On 06/08/2018 at 14:42, Mr Stubbs said:

That’s fair comment. I love the Radiomir cushion case, and the 372 is my favourite PAM design. But if  you look closely at PAM submersibles, there is an enormous chunk of empty ‘real estate’ on those broad bezels that the designers struggle to fill.

The  carbotech adds visual interest to that broad bezel with a cool iridescence.  Same thing with a Bronzo: If they didn’t  corrode in an interesting pattern, they would just look like a porthole with a bezel like a toilet seat.  But I still love them.  :lol:

Thank you for the great review ... I recently received a V3 616 ... and I was looking around for all the details.  I have to agree on your view of these huge bezels we see on subs ... I also have a 671 and can appreciate your observation if the bronze does not patina well.

The only disappointment of the 616 is those lug holes ... a proper Sub should have sturdier lug/spring bars.   Would completely drilling the holes and installing proper springbars compromise the lugs?

What's your opinion on the 661 then ... I do like the slim bezel and the gold hands draw a nice contrast on that black matte dial.

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Tickman

Have you tried spring screws?  That may be easier to try than drilling.

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btocamelo
1 hour ago, Tickman said:

Have you tried spring screws?  That may be easier to try than drilling.

The current spring bars on the REP carbotechs are standard "shoulder" spring bars ... they do not go all the way through the lug holes.  The holes you see on the outside of the REP lugs are dummy ... they do not go all the way through.  In order to remove the strap on a 616, you have to go on the "inside" of the lug, between the strap ... and pry the "shoulder" of the springbar.

 

 The GEN Carbotechs has the lug hole drilled all the way through ... and the OEM springbar in those have longer pins that go into the holes.  You remove the springbars via standard method ... inserting a long pin into the hole and pushing in the springbar pin.

My question was ... can the REP Carbotech lug dummy hole be drilled all the way through ... and a OEM spring bar used?  

I know this is overkill on a REP ... but just curious if it truly compromises the strength of the lugs and potentially crack or delaminate the lug?

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