semperfi55 4,707 Posted October 19, 2018 What do you do if you want to buy a gen dress watch? After purchasing may shiny new reps recently, I felt like buying a gen just to change things up a little. But man those gen prices are eye-gouging! A Swiss made gen dress watch with annual claendar complications? At least a thousand pounds.... Let's go vintage. It can still be pretty expensive. You have all these like-minded hipsters on eBay bidding these watches to the thousands, waaaay overpriced. Let's go unknown vintage then. I posted the watch on wristcheck which generated some interest, so @BenjaminButton @RussP @frankfrank @GC @Khronos here is more info about the watch and brand! The Brand When I first saw a Cuervo y Sobrinos watch, all I could think of was a curvy Sabrina. I see listings that sell a Longines watch with this "Cuervo y Sobrinos" printed on the dial. Are Longines selling curvy Sabrina's watch here? Or is Sabrina selling Longines reps? Is she a TD? So many questions... The business was founded by Don Ramón in 1882 as a jewelry store. At some point between 1900-1917, his nephew D. Armando F. Río y Cuervo helped expand the business (now named Cuervo y Sobrinos or Cuervo and Nephews) into watchmaking/selling. They opened up offices in Pforzheim (Germany) and in Paris. CyS mostly imported Swiss brands into Cuba and stamped their name on those dials, a bit similar to those Rolex Tiffany dials. They also "made" their own watches, which consist of Swiss made dials and Swiss made movements stamped with their brands. Here are some photos of the watches sold and/or made by CyS back in the early 20th century. These photos are from the collection of Jmazpiazu and Nicolau from relojes-especiales.com, a Spanish-speaking watch forum. https://www.relojes-especiales.com/foros/vintages/cuervo-y-sobrinos-cuba-coleccion-97827/#post1177768 They have helpfully categorised the CyS watches into 3 groups: Category 1: The Classics are the lower end of the CyS collection. The company uses movements by Felsa, AS, ETA and Landeron. The dial, movement and case are marked with the CyS branding. These watches would NOT have the "Unicos Importadores" inscription (Exclusive Importer), because technically these were the Cuban brand's own watches so they weren't importing them. But you will see some listings online that have these watches with the Exclusive Importer inscription; best to avoid them. Here are some CyS "Classics": there are simple 3 handers, chronographs, annual calendars and even an interesting dual watch. Photos belong to Jmazpiazu and Nicolau Category 2: The Tradition. These are CyS' mid-tier watches, still their own branding, but Swiss parts. Again, these are the company's own watches so you shouldn't be seeing the "Unicos Importadores" inscription anywhere. More photos that belong to Jmazpiazu and Nicolau. Category 3: The dual branded watches. These are Swiss brand watches imported by CyS into Cuba. Only in these watches should you expect to see "Unicos Importadores" on the dial. However, you won't see them on all of the imported watches due to dial size constraints. These watches are the ones to be wary about because some unscrupulous sellers have frankened vintage watches by simply printing CyS onto the dial just to make it "rare" and collectible. There is a lot of contradictory information online. Some sources say they imported a variety of Swiss brands. Others say it's only Longines and Roskopf. Photos belong to Jmazpiazu and Nicolau I very much appreciate Jmazpiazu and Nicolau's extensive research into the original business's history and photos of their collections. No doubt they would have endeavoured to collect the gen CyS and tried to avoid the franken watches. However, I can't help but feel that at least some of their double-branded watches might be frankened watches. Some of them reminds me of the HMT Indian redials. But this is all speculation. The business did not have a standardised font for their branding prints so anything goes. With so few gens on the market alongside lack of standardisation, it's very easy for franken watches to float in the market. Cuervo y Sobrinos closed their doors in 1959 due to the Cuban Revolution. The company was no more until it was relaunced in the late 1990s-early 2000s. This new company was launched in Europe and markets itself as a Swiss watch brand with Latin heritage. It heavily uses the "1882" and "Habana" imagery in all their marketing and watches. The story goes that some people discovered these vaults in the original Havana shop which had loads of CyS watches and movements, untouched by Castro's government. These were brought back to Europe to restart the company. That is the new company's version of events. Their link back to the original business is flimsy at best. This article here discusses the original business's roots and gives an alternative perspective: https://www.relojes-especiales.com/foros/esenciales/cuervo-y-sobrinos-cuba-historia-97340/ It is written in Spanish, so I read it in google translate's sketchy English. It's worth a read and has many photos too! Regardless of how the new company likes to portray their "heritage", they do make some classy, unique pieces. This "cracked porcelain" dial day date is my personal favourite! Phew! That was a lot of faff! Onto the watch I actually bought! The Watch I spotted this on an eBay auction listing and easily won it 20 pounds above it's starting price; there isn't much interest for these watches. I only pulled the trigger on this watch after reading the aforementioned links and repeated searches on Google. At this point I'm almost certain mine is a gen Under more normal indoor lighting... Dimensions Case Diameter: 33.6mm Case Height: 11.7mm Lug-to-Lug: 40.7mm Lug Width: An awkward 17mm The case itself is actually very slim; the bulk of the thickness is due to the extremely domed crystal. Overall, this is a very tiny watch. Great for my wrist size, deal-breaker for the Paneristi. Dial The dial is amazingly complicated with the less-than-precise printing which adds to the charm! Any "scratches" you see are light distortions due to the domed crystal. There are some light scratches on the crystal but almost non-visible in the photos. Right at 12 o'clock there is the month window. Small seconds subdial at 6 o'clock. I certainly wouldn't put their at least 60 year old anti-magnetic claim to the test! You can also see the "Swiss Made" inscription, almost illegible. Bear in mind this is small font on a 33mm diameter watch. The outer blue ring/bezel is the date bezel. It is rotatable. The "BREVET" is an abbreviation for patent. Together with that cross, it means "Swiss patent". The inner ring are the abbreviated days of the week in Spanish. The days are repeated in this inner circle with a red hand as the date indicator. Here you can see the pie pan dial sloping down towards the outer date bezel. Lovely distortion of the red hand by the domed crystal A low angle shot. Notice the dates near 6 o'clock. Lovely reflection/distortion by the crystal again! Movement You guys are in luck. You will now see the movement for this unique watch, at considerable risk to my watch. The caseback has the business logo engraved, overall looks legit with comparison photos. Just to let you know the case was Swiss Made too. The movement is a generic Fontmelon FHF 175 movement with CyS inscriptions. You can see similar movements here on this database with different brand inscriptions. http://www.ranfft.de/cgi-bin/bidfun-db.cgi?10&ranfft&&2uswk&FHF_175 Therefore, if you like the design of this movement with its complications and not too fussed about branding, I'm sure you can find some that are much cheaper. Mine looks pretty consistent with other gen CyS watches with these complications. Again, Swiss made movement. Case I'm going to hazard a guess and say it is a gold plated case. Not much to shout about: it's slim, it's dressy! Scratches galore The crown at 3 o'clock. Lovely battle scars Another crown at 10 o'clock. See how high the dome goes! It's so curved it might remind you of a Ball @McGilli Strap & Buckle A cheapo strap came with the watch. Like @Glaude would say, it's made of camel penis skin Functions This took me a while to figure out. I had extensive communications with the seller; even they weren't sure about some of the complications. Adjust time: pull out and rotate 3 o'clock crown. Pretty standard Adjust day: by bringing the time back and forth between 21:30 and 24:00, this will advance the red hand. It's rather finicky, thus the repeating days of the week around the entire dial to make things slightly easier. Adjust month: rotate the 10 o'clock crown WITHOUT pulling it out. It is bi-directional. Adjust date: pull out and rotate the 10 o'clock crown, again it is bi-directional. This will rotate the date bezel. So first adjust the red hand to the correct day. Then adjust the date bezel so that the date corresponds to where the red hand is pointing. Accuracy Fuck knows. It's at least 60 years old. It survived Castro. Give it a break. Overall This is definitely a unique timepiece for my collection. All complications working beautifully at the moment, the sweep on the small second hand is buttery smooth. This watch led me down a very interesting rabbit hole of a very obscure brand with not much information. I will be flaunting this at my next dressy occasion. Lovely hobby this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glaude 1,615 Posted October 19, 2018 What a lovely review for a very nice watch ! You should have tried to do a full side shot of the domed crystal, seems impressive on some of the pics. BUT ... (there's always a butt somewhere...pun intended) 25 minutes ago, semperfi55 said: The story goes that some people discovered these vaults in the original Havana shop which had loads of CyS watches and movements, untouched by Castro's government. These were brought back to Europe to restart the company. Although I don't disagree with the doubt laying around that, I've read the original forum post in Spanish about the history : It's entirely possible that some safe remained untouched and unmolested in Cuba, knowing quite a lot of how things goes and where at the time, they had bigger preoccupation than a high-end watch business, sure they took what they could and used them later to build some sort of "branding" of the revolution and the new government, but that doesn't mean they took everything, seized it etc... They probably took what they needed and left the rest to rot Next thing, I share with you the doubt about those big brands coexisting with CyS, one is for sure a fake, the Patek Philippe and I'm pretty sure they all are fake/frankens expects the two brands you quoted interesting to note that some of the newer models can be had second hand for not that much money in comparison to other big Swiss names Now go put on a decent strap on this bad boy will you ! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thommo82 1,397 Posted October 20, 2018 I actually read all of that and now feel thoroughly informed! Thanks for the great write up Honestky can’t believe you can make a watch that small look that big though..... I have small wrists and that is how a 43mm wears on me Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thommo82 1,397 Posted October 20, 2018 Just found this one on eBay, same same but different. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
semperfi55 4,707 Posted October 20, 2018 16 minutes ago, Glaude said: Although I don't disagree with the doubt laying around that, I've read the original forum post in Spanish about the history : It's entirely possible that some safe remained untouched and unmolested in Cuba, knowing quite a lot of how things goes and where at the time, they had bigger preoccupation than a high-end watch business, sure they took what they could and used them later to build some sort of "branding" of the revolution and the new government, but that doesn't mean they took everything, seized it etc... They probably took what they needed and left the rest to rot That may well be the case! Ultimately, there's always some smoke and mirrors with a brand's history. I'm sure that is the case too for the other well-known, established Swiss brands. 19 minutes ago, Glaude said: one is for sure a fake, the Patek Philippe and I'm pretty sure they all are fake/frankens except the two brands you quoted I agree with that assessment. 20 minutes ago, Glaude said: interesting to note that some of the newer models can be had second hand for not that much money in comparison to other big Swiss names Being an obscure brand it doesn't hold it's value well/ their watches are overpriced? 15 minutes ago, Thommo82 said: Honestky can’t believe you can make a watch that small look that big though..... I'm actually a child tiny wrists 16 minutes ago, Thommo82 said: I have small wrists and that is how a 43mm wears on me Sounds like big wrists to me... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
semperfi55 4,707 Posted October 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Thommo82 said: The movement is pretty generic and used by many different brands. The issue here is the "Unicos Importadores" on the dial. That's usually found on dials of other Swiss brands imported by CyS. If it is a CyS watch, they wouldn't need to be imported, it doesn't make sense. That's my opinion anyway. It's going quite cheap so if one loves the aesthetic and is not fussed by that kind of detail it's perfectly fine! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Chixisigma 461 Posted October 20, 2018 37 minutes ago, Thommo82 said: Honestky can’t believe you can make a watch that small look that big though.... Anyone this smart is bound to have small wrists, poor eyesight and lots of food allergies. Trade off innit! Great review, Sir - and I agree, that 'crackled' Churchill is spectacular! Limited to 200 pieces though. Might be a touch too expensive... Cxs Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thommo82 1,397 Posted October 20, 2018 The shape of thelugs on the new models are really unique and interesting. They are anything but a boring watch Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Glaude 1,615 Posted October 20, 2018 45 minutes ago, semperfi55 said: Being an obscure brand it doesn't hold it's value well/ their watches are overpriced? Chrono24 listing has some tempting price on some of them ! That's the benefit of liking obscure brands 24 minutes ago, Thommo82 said: They are anything but a boring watch That's what I like about them, pretty regular dials (although some are very innovative) but completely exclusive case & lugs shape Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
semperfi55 4,707 Posted October 20, 2018 40 minutes ago, Chixisigma said: small wrists, poor eyesight and lots of food allergies I need to up my privacy settings 40 minutes ago, Chixisigma said: Limited to 200 pieces though. Might be a touch too expensive That's why I bought this instead! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McGilli 1 Posted October 20, 2018 @semperfi55 Everything on the dials looks hand painted. Looking closely I can't see any repeats with regards to letters etc - unless it was some crap screen-printing etc from the times. The only question I really have is... What caused that big scratch leading to the crown at 3? I imagine the original wearer of the watch was at a table that was littered with guns and ammunition, and when the Federales busted in the door, the wearer spun around, was hit at least 4 times, and as he fell he turned back towards the tables and his arm crashed down and across a pistol that was laying on the table, causing that deep scratch. It was a Tokarev pistol. Obviously the watch was pilfered by a soldier, smuggled out of the country and once that fellow had passed away it was then given to that thief's son, who actually travelled to the US and was working for a drug cartel, and once he was captured, and waterboarded he was killed in Guantanamo prison by the CIA. Watch was smuggled out of evidence by a US military customs official, where it stayed in his drawer of 'trophy's' until recently when he passed away of natural caused (strychnine poisoning). With no surviving family, all of the possessions were sold at auction, and bought by the fine person you purchased it from. So, I hope that was disclosed in the sale since there's probably still cocaine residue somewhere deep in the watch. And honestly, that's what I would tell people. As opposed to: You: "So where'd you get your watch?" Random: 'The Apple store... ' You: "Huh, that's quite the story.... Now let me tell you about mine" Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kernow 33 Posted October 20, 2018 1 hour ago, McGilli said: @semperfi55 Everything on the dials looks hand painted. Looking closely I can't see any repeats with regards to letters etc - unless it was some crap screen-printing etc from the times. The only question I really have is... What caused that big scratch leading to the crown at 3? I imagine the original wearer of the watch was at a table that was littered with guns and ammunition, and when the Federales busted in the door, the wearer spun around, was hit at least 4 times, and as he fell he turned back towards the tables and his arm crashed down and across a pistol that was laying on the table, causing that deep scratch. It was a Tokarev pistol. Obviously the watch was pilfered by a soldier, smuggled out of the country and once that fellow had passed away it was then given to that thief's son, who actually travelled to the US and was working for a drug cartel, and once he was captured, and waterboarded he was killed in Guantanamo prison by the CIA. Watch was smuggled out of evidence by a US military customs official, where it stayed in his drawer of 'trophy's' until recently when he passed away of natural caused (strychnine poisoning). With no surviving family, all of the possessions were sold at auction, and bought by the fine person you purchased it from. So, I hope that was disclosed in the sale since there's probably still cocaine residue somewhere deep in the watch. And honestly, that's what I would tell people. As opposed to: You: "So where'd you get your watch?" Random: 'The Apple store... ' You: "Huh, that's quite the story.... Now let me tell you about mine" Hmmmmm where was it stored? Up the ass of some Cuban drug runner? Just like in Pulp Fiction eh? It’s not Charlie I’d be looking for. Anyway great catch, lovely watch and fantastic review. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BenjaminButton 149 Posted October 20, 2018 Thank you very much for linking me in. A very informative piece on this brand I’d never heard of until you posted the photo of your watch, which I like very much. The effort is much appreciated and I’m still hovering over the ‘needs repair’ on eBay although I could see it ending up either costing as much as one that doesn’t need to repair or simply sitting in a watch box looking pretty and still needing repair. There are some great pieces out there although the awareness seems to be growing and so the prices. I’m not a fan of the modern incarnation. I think they try to hard to look vintage but with modern production techniques they are too perfect and too retro. Some designs only work for me if they are actually of the period. I’m going to come back to this as time is a little short right now but wanted to at least express my appreciation. Via radio waves and Crapatalk. I’m currently caught up in life and have no spare time to respond at length. Time consuming offensive replies will resume shortly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
semperfi55 4,707 Posted October 21, 2018 On 20/10/2018 at 04:09, McGilli said: Huh, that's quite the story.... I paid $50 for the watch $400 for the story.... If I need to do a M2M sell off of my collection, it would be great to have these back stories for them. My people will contact your people. On 20/10/2018 at 05:22, Kernow said: Hmmmmm where was it stored? Up the ass of some Cuban drug runner? Just like in Pulp Fiction eh? It’s not Charlie I’d be looking for. That explains all the literal crap I found in the watch! On 20/10/2018 at 07:16, BenjaminButton said: I think they try to hard to look vintage but with modern production techniques they are too perfect and too retro. That's a very eloquent way of saying what I was thinking about some of the designs. On 20/10/2018 at 07:16, BenjaminButton said: Time consuming offensive replies will resume shortly Yes! Normal service to resume shortly Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McGilli 1 Posted October 21, 2018 On 19/10/2018 at 23:16, BenjaminButton said: Time consuming offensive replies will resume shortly. And I thought maybe I'd just softened you up Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BenjaminButton 149 Posted October 21, 2018 And I thought maybe I'd just softened you up I would love to credit you with my silence but I’m simply rather knackered. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
frankfrank 1,125 Posted October 22, 2018 @semperfi55 Fantastic write up! Thanks for chiming me in on this. Great back story and im interested to follow these watches now and see how popularity and prices change. I think you should go with @McGilli 's story from now on it seems like the most likely scenario for those scratches Great piece for your collection Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
semperfi55 4,707 Posted October 23, 2018 22 hours ago, frankfrank said: see how popularity and prices change Thanks Frank This triple Calendar pointer movement is relatively common and used by different brands. I'm sure you can find one cheap if you're not fussed about CyS. I fell into the branding trap so had to get this one. And the story to boot! 22 hours ago, frankfrank said: Great piece for your collection One more for the weird watches collection Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
McGilli 1 Posted October 23, 2018 57 minutes ago, semperfi55 said: One more for the weird watches collection The thing i s - you don't seem like an eccentric fellow - so I can't even call your collection eccentric. Maybe weird is right!!! Hahaha. Na. Let's call it... An off the beaten path, diverse collection of horological history collection mystery tour. (Cuz having a reference to The Beatles is sure to help viewership around here ) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
