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Factory raids... [OLD from 2 years ago - Not happening now]

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Aramis2288

Lengthy, but interesting post I found on RWI:

"Interesting article today from https://www.worldtrademarkreview.com...ories-in-china

Copied below in full.

“Nothing has changed” – concern over stalled efforts to close counterfeit factories in China

  • Social media reports point to recent counterfeits crackdown in China
  • Experts tells WTR they’ve seen little evidence of an increase in factory closures
  • Guangdong and Zhejiang provinces most likely to see enforcement action

Despite reports of increased police raids of factories producing counterfeit goods in China, experts on the ground have told WTR that there is little sign of a recent rise in legal enforcement. However, there’s some positive news, including product developments that are causing “bother” for counterfeiters.

Last month, a leaked message from WuWatch (a China-based website outlet for fake watches) was published on Reddit claiming there have been “more police raids in China”. In the message, a WuWatch representative claimed that legal authorities “always raid recently”, and revealed that a factory operated by ‘Noob’, a notorious producer of fake watches, had been shut down. In further conversations, the WuWatch rep reportedly claimed “more raids are shutting down rep factories”.

Unsurprisingly, there is concern and outcry in communities dedicated to ‘rep culture’, especially those who regularly buy fake luxury watches. Some are speculating on the reasons for a crackdown, with one claim that Chinese authorities have been ordered to “clean up shop” prior to the upcoming Winter Olympics in February 2022. Others are not worried, claiming that raids are usually a temporary measure until counterfeiters move to another site. “For people worrying about the future of replica watches, there's nothing to worry about,” one user claimed. “Everybody in China knows about the rep industry, and the government doesn't have an initiative to stop this booming industry.”

While the ‘rep community’ is reporting a significant increase in police raids, experts on the ground are more sceptical. A representative from Chinese IP law firm Ferrante IP says they “have not seen any significant increase in the number of counterfeit-related factories being closed over the past year”, adding: “Indeed, quite a few small factories involved in counterfeiting have been closed, but it is more due to the economic and social challenges caused by pandemic, rather than additional attention from the enforcement officials specifically.”

That is not to say that there’s been a step back in enforcement activity from Chinese enforcement agencies, the firm representative clarified. What helps, they note, is “continuously enhanced new laws and specific regulations pertaining to enforcements” that have been enacted in the last few years. In general, they’ve further noticed that “small-scale unnamed factories” are more likely to be permanently closed, most of which are located in Guangdong and Zhejiang provinces.

In another conversation, a prominent counterfeiting expert in China (who preferred not to be named for safety reasons) clarified that, despite rumours of a recent crackdown, “nothing has changed”. Indeed, they have noticed that counterfeit factory raids in China “are somewhat cyclical in nature” and “tend to take place in the run up to Chinese New Year, where rep production ramps up due to everything in China closing down for over a month”. From their perspective, the legal authorities in China could do more, but there’s little evidence that it is being done. “Factory raids seem to be more of a ‘box ticker’ for the higher-ups than an actual concerted effort,” the expert adds. “They clearly have the manpower to shut these places down should they so wish. However, given the scale of the business and the tax revenue, I’ve wondered if that would be in anyone’s interest.”

Of course, the mass closure of counterfeit factories would be in the interest of international brand owners, especially those in the fashion, luxury and pharmaceutical sectors.

In more positive news for rights holders, the expert tells us a recent popular product has been causing problems for manufacturers of fake goods. “With the introduction of the new ‘Air Jordan 1’ silhouette, the factories in Quanzhou – where the vast majority of Alibaba ‘customs’ originate – are in a bit of bother,” he reveals. “These factories predominantly worked on ‘Air Jordan 1 Highs’ and ‘SB Dunks’. Previously, they were able to play with the silhouette and only avoid using Nike’s Swoosh, but now they must change at least 30% of the shoe’s overall design – they are very wary of being shut down in that city. That is unlike neighboring city Putian, where the straight up replicas are produced, where the factories are more brazen.”

It’s clear from recent reports that the production of counterfeits in China has not been dented by the covid-19 pandemic or any other recent events. For brand owners, then, the fight continues."



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Pesman

Really useful….now where do I get me some Nike trainers!

Mary continues to report that things are difficult and factories methods are changing.

For example, she says that VSF will no longer accept returns so QC is becoming trickier….not sure how that will play out but QC is a critical part for me…she sent 3 Omegas back before shipping my last order!


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Aramis2288
6 hours ago, Pesman said:

For example, she says that VSF will no longer accept returns so QC is becoming trickier….not sure how that will play out but QC is a critical part for me…she sent 3 Omegas back before shipping my last order!

I think that it would be a deal-breaker for many folks in this community, including myself. I had a similar situation with my PAM799 (which I never managed to get due to a lost package and then raids). If I look at my to-buy list the majority of watches are from VSF and I would certainly start buying them as soon as they appear. Having said that, if the VSF will really impose the 'no returns' policy, then I would much rather start buying reps of other makers rather than risk it.

Not quite sure how they will do business if the buyer needs to play Russian roulette with them (and I doubt that their quality assurance on factory level will become good enough to trust their pieces blindly).

Perhaps it's something temporary as right now surely they need to keep a low profile. Another reason could be that, as the word says, their current batches of watches are mostly from the pre-raid stock. So if we assume that they haven't resumed the production yet that would explain why they don't accept returns.

Edited by Aramis2288

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Flinnt

I have 2 VSFs sitting at an airport in China. The TD gave me the option to reject them. I don’t know if he was just prepared to keep it to sell to someone else if I rejected one or if he could actually send it back. 
Of course they’re both great so approved. 

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Glaude

That article is much hearsay, rumors and so called reports that could easily be translated as : we don't know, nobody knows.

Truth is, we are seeing the disruption caused by those raids, they are heavier than usual and last longer too : why ? We will probably never know.

The conclusions of the article are good however : unlikely to make a big change as it would be good for no one appart from brands and we know that this doesn't mean much there.

4 hours ago, Aramis2288 said:

I think that it would be a deal-breaker for many folks in this community, including myself. I had a similar situation with my PAM799 (which I never managed to get due to a lost package and then raids). If I look at my to-buy list the majority of watches are from VSF and I would certainly start buying them as soon as they appear. Having said that, if the VSF will really impose the 'no returns' policy, then I would much rather start buying reps of other makers rather than risk it.

Or it will separate a good dealer from a bad one, the dealer will fetch the watches and be more attentive to the quality rather than letting the client nitpick the QC, it'll certainly work because that's how it worked before the QC system was introduced.

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Aramis2288




Or it will separate a good dealer from a bad one, the dealer will fetch the watches and be more attentive to the quality rather than letting the client nitpick the QC, it'll certainly work because that's how it worked before the QC system was introduced.


So the TD was just picking the piece on his own, making sure that all is good before sending it out and there was no photos sent to the customer whatsoever?

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Glaude
4 hours ago, Aramis2288 said:


 

 


So the TD was just picking the piece on his own, making sure that all is good before sending it out and there was no photos sent to the customer whatsoever?

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk
 

 

That's how it worked and worked well for many years, ask the old timers around here

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Pesman
That's how it worked and worked well for many years, ask the old timers around here
Not sure I'd want to go back to that. But I've been very spoilt by Mary's excellent QC.

Out of interest she has just offered my pay after order found and checjed rather than vice versa. A nice touch to avoid funds sitting unfulfilled and appreciated! Trust is a rare thing.

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Aramis2288
19 hours ago, Pesman said:

Not sure I'd want to go back to that. But I've been very spoilt by Mary's excellent QC.

Out of interest she has just offered my pay after order found and checjed rather than vice versa. A nice touch to avoid funds sitting unfulfilled and appreciated! Trust is a rare thing.

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk
 

I could not agree more. Mary does a very good job with QC. For over a year I am buying exclusively from her and I've never been disappointed. 

With trust, indeed, once she got to know the customer better and some mutual trust has been developed she tends to do these lovely gestures of trust. I was always appreciating it a lot.

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GenTLe
2 hours ago, Aramis2288 said:

I could not agree more. Mary does a very good job with QC. For over a year I am buying exclusively from her and I've never been disappointed. 

With trust, indeed, once she got to know the customer better and some mutual trust has been developed she tends to do these lovely gestures of trust. I was always appreciating it a lot.

Oh yeah, @Mary Watch definitively deserves respect. She also helped me, when possible.

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CurioLeo
On 18/07/2021 at 20:03, Aramis2288 said:


 

 


So the TD was just picking the piece on his own, making sure that all is good before sending it out and there was no photos sent to the customer whatsoever?

Sent from my LYA-L29 using Tapatalk
 

 

I used to get great pieces from Toro again and again before QC became a thing across the board.  IMHO, he used to take more care with what got sent out nearly a decade ago......... or it could simply be that the demand for replica watches has increased to a level which makes it impossible for any TD to inform themselves of all the relevant details of all the different watches they sell and then carefully check off against them.  It doesn't help that customers expectations have gone from accepting typos on the caseback as a given (sometimes even on the dial) to demanding micrometric alignment of everything on the dial with the genuine item.  Whilst legends like Ale have had much to do with the improvements made in quality by analysing every little detail ad infinitum in incredibly comprehensive reviews, they are also responsible for making it much harder to simply enjoy a replica for what it is - a cheap reproduction.   

Naturally, with the uptick in quality comes increased scrutiny and pressure to address the problem of a counterfeit product rather than a replica. If a watch generally looks like a Rolex but anyone with any knowledge can immediately tell it is not the real deal, then you are in "Immitation is the best form of flattery" territory - Rolex takes it a compliment and doesn't give a fuck.   Indeed, they encourage it - seeing a Rolex on everyone's wrist is the best form of free advertising.  If, however, you need to take off the caseback with a genuine Rolex tool and study the movement under a strong light with a 10x loupe (ala VSF3135 movement) before you can confidently declare a watch as non-genuine, Rolex suddenly has a lot more skin in the game - they are now potentially losing sales and not just to the guy who bought the rep but to the broader public if the concept that a replica can be 95% as good for 5% of the price takes hold. 

 

So yeah.....the better rep quality gets, the more serious raids will be with more permanent consequences for rep collectors. 

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Intresting
On 19/07/2021 at 20:40, Aramis2288 said:

I could not agree more. Mary does a very good job with QC. For over a year I am buying exclusively from her and I've never been disappointed. 

With trust, indeed, once she got to know the customer better and some mutual trust has been developed she tends to do these lovely gestures of trust. I was always appreciating it a lot.

@Aramis2288  You should be VIP by now mate :)    You part of the furniture.

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Aramis2288
[mention=107703]Aramis2288[/mention]  You should be VIP by now mate     You part of the furniture.

Me? Nah. Super noobie.

 

Anyone, what's the best Rolex rep out there? Something like VSF Daytona but better. Any advices appreciated!

 

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Intresting
23 minutes ago, Aramis2288 said:

 

 

Anyone, what's the best Rolex rep out there? Something like VSF Daytona but better. Any advices appreciated!emoji28.png

 

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stop pretending to save a couple of quid  :D

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Aramis2288
7 hours ago, Intresting said:

stop pretending to save a couple of quid  :D

... and the bounty hunting begins. .....:Jumpy:

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Horace Derwent

Noob update directly from Reddit


While Noob might not return but the 4130 from Dandong is here to stay. the investment was massive and what they achieve with it is a breakthrough, allegedly Dandong is indirectly owned by the Chinese government. Here is some of the text i got from someone in China. The Daytona's we are seeing have allegedly been assembled by one of noob shareholders, he is using the remaining parts stock.

Dude, please read the conversation below, is noob really no longer producing?

18.8. Josh: Information on Daytona4130.... There are more and more complaints in China. Many noob 4130 Daytona and VSF submarines and Datejust are sold as genuine products, which eventually involve Rolex. The Rolex Committee and the Chinese police are investigating to resolve this.

Question...(188. Josh: Even the producer of the 4130 Super Clone Campaign, the Dandong factory in northern China was also searched. This is a partially state-owned factory...

(18.8. Josh: Noob's own son and some of his relatives participated in this business, and they were arrested... 188. Josh: Noob tried to save his son with 100 million yuan, but to no avail...

(188. Josh thinks the 4130 movement will be forever and it's about to be purchased by other factory.

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beatleboylevi

So, and forgive me if this is a dumb question, do we feel VFS will ever return? Maybe as a different factory? 

I'm a huge Omega fan and was loving their seamasters...

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tribefan
13 minutes ago, beatleboylevi said:

So, and forgive me if this is a dumb question, do we feel VFS will ever return? Maybe as a different factory? 

I'm a huge Omega fan and was loving their seamasters...

Word next door and on Reddit is that VSF is history. What comes back? :ohwell:

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beatleboylevi
Just now, tribefan said:

Word next door and on Reddit is that VSF is history. What comes back? :ohwell:

So if VSF (thank you for correcting my error ha) is history, what do we think is the next best Omega Rep maker? 

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tribefan
1 hour ago, beatleboylevi said:

So if VSF (thank you for correcting my error ha) is history, what do we think is the next best Omega Rep maker? 

Your best source of info is TD's that are on the ground in China. It is a pretty fluid situation.

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thejudge

Its Crazy this has gone on for so long this must have dented TD's income by alot.

I haven't bought a watch since just before this started and we don't seem to have any light at the end of the tunnel at the moment.

Unfortunately next purchase was going to be a Daytona with a 4130 clone but that seems to now be a pipe dream.

Do any of the TD's know if any of the factories are developing a 4130 clone ( A ARF with a 4130 would sell like hot cakes)? 

 

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Pesman

So I took the plunge and ordered two Omegas from Mary at around £300 each. The idea was to replicate a limited edition OHSS box set that Omega produced as below.. £35k for the gen but, more importantly, no dates on the dial

 

72681ff12af30615fa304ca65a2b1712.jpg

 

2bf010810fe95e4618363299c8fd85f3.jpg

 

Mary also showed me this, which she says was the relaunch of GF under the guise of OMF..

 

3156a024e1792130916348ec961d3696.jpg

 

All looks good, so I ordered the last two from the picture...to match the original set..and yes I know I'm sad but hey why not?

 

Mary confirms availability....Order placed....funds transferred in Wise

 

A day later Mary says factory raided so a delay...

 

Today Mary says she has steel version but RG is no longer available and can I choose something else...bang goes the set...

 

So raids clearly continue to cause issues...will I get anything? Only time will tell but I am sure Mary and her colleagues must have seen business plummeting...

 

BTW I have now ordered this...not an exact rep...43mm not 41mm and wrong dial layout but still nice...

 

67ac65fb139b674e8169aa775a08eab1.jpg

 

Will update when things happen

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Mrluwin

Cheers for the update mate,

I've got that ZF pilot chrono in steel, great watch

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Pesman
Cheers for the update mate,
I've got that ZF pilot chrono in steel, great watch
I have far too many but couldn't think of anything else on the spur of the moment

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APjumbo

Is that IWC the  bronze with the green dial?  Edit- I zoomed in, it is, that’s the one I’ve been thinking about.

Excellent idea on the omega case set!

I hope you find the Gold one.

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