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neogeo999

Watch lose exactly 5 mins every time is set

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neogeo999

I know it's not a replica but this forum has always been my best source for technical advice.
I just bought a beautiful Tissot PR 516 in almost NOS conditions that have a very unusual problem.

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The watch has been serviced and the movement looks immaculate.
The watch average -3s/-9s on the timegrapher depending on position with a beat error from 0.0ms to 0.2ms.

After wearing it for an hour I noticed that it was 5min slow,  so I reset the time and after thirty minutes it was again 5min slow.
At this point I took it off and let it run for 24 hours... after 24 hours he had only lost 5 minutes.

I made a timelapse video and after various tests, I discovered something unusual. (Sorry for the bad video quality)

The minute hand stops for exactly 5 minutes between the 45 and 55 min markers only the first round after the time is set. (See the attached video)

The minute hand is still perfectly aligned with the hour, so it cannot be a badly set hand.
It looks like both the hour and minute hands slow down together, but the second hand is unaffected.
I would be really sorry to return the watch because finding another one in this condition would be almost impossible.


Any idea what it could be?

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J!m

Have you tried setting the time by running the hands anti-clockwise? Sometimes train lash will cause this problem. But it usually shows up in the first minutes of running.

But it costs nothing to try it.

Losing minute(s) every hour is often a broken wheel, but it seems like it only loses the initial chunk of time, so I'm going with train lash. It could also be worn pivot(s) allowing the wheels to come out of alignment, which is essentially lash that may not be taken up by setting anti-clockwise.

So, if the first test fails, it needs to go back to the watchmaker who serviced it to check it over better.

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neogeo999
40 minutes ago, J!m said:

Have you tried setting the time by running the hands anti-clockwise? Sometimes train lash will cause this problem. But it usually shows up in the first minutes of running.

Thanks for the suggestion.
I have already tried but I will try again... I have lost track of all the tests done to identify the problem. :)
 

42 minutes ago, J!m said:

So, if the first test fails, it needs to go back to the watchmaker who serviced it to check it over better.

I bought the watch already serviced from an auction site where it was listed as just serviced and perfectly working.
I can either return the watch for a full refund or keep it and have the watch serviced by a local watchmaker.
I am torn because it took me 3 years to found a good example of Tissot PR 516 with printed indexes, on the other hand, finding replacement parts for a vintage movement could be difficult and expensive.

So I'm trying to figure out if it's reasonable to hope a watchmaker can fix the problem without replacing the movement.

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tribefan

My guess, and it's only a guess, is missing teeth on the minute wheel.

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J!m

Lost teeth on the minute wheel loses time every hour. Usually.

If you like the dial, just find another watch, with a less desirable dial, that works, as a parts donor for your local watchmaker.

 

Trouble is: often the same parts break and you are left searching...

 

What movement is it? Probably an AS or ESA something common I would guess

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neogeo999
43 minutes ago, J!m said:

If you like the dial, just find another watch, with a less desirable dial, that works, as a parts donor for your local watchmaker.

What movement is it? Probably an AS or ESA something common I would guess

The movement is a Tissot 782, not a very common movement.
It was produced both as Tissot and as Lanco for almost 10 years but the version in this watch the "782-1" has incabloc instead of generic shock protection and semy quickset date. and is very rare.

In the meantime, I tried again to set the time by moving the hands back to no avail.
The watch lost 5 minutes in the first hour and then resumed keeping time as shown in the video above.

I suppose the best option is to keep the watch and try to find a donor movement or watch.

 

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elconquistador

Set it 5 minutes ahead

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fatarms

Disclaimer - I'm no watchsmith, so I might be talking out of my ass here...

I notice it's almost 3:00 when this happens.  Is it possible (asking people who know more than me) that the issue may be related to the date change mechanism disengaging from the date wheel (usually happens around that time?)

Does the same thing happen if you start the watch at something like 6:00?  Will it skip 5 minutes at 6:45 on the first time around?  If so, that will disprove what I'm saying and prove once again that I have no idea what I'm talking about. :lol:

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Piloten

I had this exact problem on a glycine. My local watch god said he reset the cannon pinion. The problem went away. I will drop him an email and report back but I am 98.73% sure.

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tribefan
37 minutes ago, Piloten said:

I had this exact problem on a glycine. My local watch god said he reset the cannon pinion. The problem went away. I will drop him an email and report back but I am 98.73% sure.

If you were 98.74% sure, I'd feel a lot better about it.

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neogeo999
14 hours ago, fatarms said:

Disclaimer - I'm no watchsmith, so I might be talking out of my ass here...

I notice it's almost 3:00 when this happens.  Is it possible (asking people who know more than me) that the issue may be related to the date change mechanism disengaging from the date wheel (usually happens around that time?)

Does the same thing happen if you start the watch at something like 6:00?  Will it skip 5 minutes at 6:45 on the first time around?  If so, that will disprove what I'm saying and prove once again that I have no idea what I'm talking about. :lol:

The testing from the video was done at 3 pm so no date mechanism was engaged.
This movement has a semi-quickset date, the date change is engaged around 10 pm and snaps over at exactly 12.
To answer your question, the same 5minutes skip happens at any hour but always when the minute hand crosses the same spot on the dial and before someone asks; the hands move freely with plenty of clearance. :)

 

13 hours ago, Piloten said:

I had this exact problem on a glycine. My local watch god said he reset the cannon pinion. The problem went away. I will drop him an email and report back but I am 98.73% sure.

I really hope you are right, I would be really relieved knowing it's an easy fix.

12 hours ago, tribefan said:

If you were 98.74% sure, I'd feel a lot better about it.

:D

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Piloten

Well, now I know I can still trust my memory.

Confirmed, the cannon pinion was tightened and everything cleaned and lubed.

Best of luck and let us know

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neogeo999
1 hour ago, Piloten said:

Well, now I know I can still trust my memory.

Confirmed, the cannon pinion was tightened and everything cleaned and lubed.

Best of luck and let us know

Thanks! Tomorrow I will bring the watch to my watchmaker.
I will let you know how it went.

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neogeo999

A little more than a month and watch is finally back on my wrist.
For all of you who were holding your breath, Piloten was right.

On 11/08/2021 at 17:33, Piloten said:

the cannon pinion was tightened

It was a badly seated cannon pinion.

IMG-20210915-084454.jpg

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deju
2 hours ago, neogeo999 said:

A little more than a month and watch is finally back on my wrist.
For all of you who were holding your breath, Piloten was right.

It was a badly seated cannon pinion.

IMG-20210915-084454.jpg

Taught him everything he knows. 

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Piloten
On 15/09/2021 at 00:56, neogeo999 said:

A little more than a month and watch is finally back on my wrist.
For all of you who were holding your breath, Piloten was right.

It was a badly seated cannon pinion.

IMG-20210915-084454.jpg

Well... Piloten's watchmaker was right, anyway.

Is it now running the way it should?

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neogeo999
1 hour ago, Piloten said:

Is it now running the way it should?

Gained 3 sec over 4 days... I would say it runs perfectly 

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tribefan

A happy ending, nice!

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