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Abe Fromen

Rep pricing

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Abe Fromen

As we have all seen, the price of reps has increased quite a bit in the past year. And I get that if you paid $5-600+ for a rep, given good condition that you can ask up to the new value plus any extra strap you may have paid extra for. I get it.

What I don't get is people selling reps (not here) that are out of production, for a premium, sometimes twice the value when new and when questioned, the seller says 'find another one in this condition.' 

Is this not profiteering? I mean, if you paid $300 for a watch a few years ago, selling it now for $600 just seems wrong to me, for THIS community. I thought we were against this practice. Am I wrong? Have things changed? 

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Philiusmaximus

You mean the old Pams that people throw shitloads at? Despite it still being a 15 year old Chinese rep?

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Abe Fromen
6 minutes ago, Philiusmaximus said:

You mean the old Pams that people throw shitloads at? Despite it still being a 15 year old Chinese rep?

Those, but even super-reps that were priced at about $3-400 when new ? 

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fatarms

I see this happening a lot with certain watches like the A7753 PAM187, or some of the DSN models.  But the most prevalent are the TC subs.  They are getting absolutely ridiculous with the pricing lately, to the point that they aren't really available to just anyone anymore.  You have to be ready to fork out $800 plus for one of those now and it just doesn't seem worth it anymore.  There are a few 5 digits coming from factories that are decent, but combine the popularity yet rarity of an out of production TC to a BP or JF 5 digit and there's almost a $500 difference in asking price.  I guess it just makes my selling my TC watches years ago that much more painful.  Not to mention that IrishCain stole one of them (a shark 16610 with a gen bezel insert) when he ghosted.  One can only hope that what he did outside the forum is kicking him in the balls now - if you know that story...

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Philiusmaximus

People just get caught up in it all and love the thrill of the chase. Personally if I spend close to a grand for a watch it goes on a gen of some sort.

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Abe Fromen
26 minutes ago, Philiusmaximus said:

People just get caught up in it all and love the thrill of the chase. Personally if I spend close to a grand for a watch it goes on a gen of some sort.

This is my take as well. The fun thing about reps is that they were relatively inexpensive and fun to buy, enjoy, flip and get something else you fancy. Now looking at a used watch that is maybe 4-5 years old going for more than double what it cost new is kind of insane to me. It's a rep. Same as investing so much money in gen parts that the rep goes north of a grand or more... but it's STILL a rep. Still a counterfeit.  

I only started this thread cuz I saw a 243 next door with the asking price of US$600 and the mods green lighted it. WTAF?? I'd love to get a 243 back in my box again, but $600US is knocking on gen watch territory and that's just stupid, IMO. 

 

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Aramis2288

It's a really good topic. All in all I think that reps collectors are no different than gen collectors. The only thing that separates them is the budget. If they want to add a specific piece to their collection they are willing to pay a lot more than its really worth.

 

The asking price for some of the old discontinued reps is a joke, that's true. But then even back in a day when the reps were cheaper, people were still willing to pay extremely elevated prices for e.g. slightly frankened Rolexes.

 

 

Sent from my SM-S908B using Tapatalk

 

 

 

 

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FudgyDocker

RWI even have a dedicated section for modded / rare / OOP models, where Supporters and Patrons can sell at higher prices. It is definitely a thing. 

Sorry, but I'm in agreement about rare / OOP model prices. It's the same for everything.  Years ago, who would have dreamed of paying £30-80,000 for a Mk1 Ford Escort?  Would anyone sell one for the 1-2k price it cost new? I think not.

At the end of the day the market decides. If you're taking the piss, you'll soon find out about it!!

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Philiusmaximus

Yeah market decides, but these are cheap Chinese fakes. Let's not forget.

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FudgyDocker
54 minutes ago, Philiusmaximus said:

cheap Chinese fakes. 

Chinese fakes, yes. Cheap, no! Just think about all the work that's gone into creating these 'Chinese fakes'. Take off the fake branding and you'll see, for the most part, that they are essentially pretty well made mechanical watches. Now compare that to a mid-range micro brand who make roughly the same quality watches, and you'll see that the prices are pretty reasonable. There's no point people bemoaning that they cost a lot more than they did 10 years ago. It's as petty as moaning that petrol used to be £2.00 a gallon in the UK 10 years ago, and now it's £7. It's called inflation, and applies to every product all over the world, whether it be a packet of crisps, an anally intrusive dildo, or a fake watch!

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fatarms

Also looks like that 243 sale is on staff hold now since people were citing others being considerably lower with multiple straps offered as well.  Also seems to be some question about the version as well, might not be top tier super AAA+++ 1:1 "Its momma wouldn't even know the difference" rep.

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Philiusmaximus
27 minutes ago, FudgyDocker said:

Chinese fakes, yes. Cheap, no! Just think about all the work that's gone into creating these 'Chinese fakes'. Take off the fake branding and you'll see, for the most part, that they are essentially pretty well made mechanical watches. Now compare that to a mid-range micro brand who make roughly the same quality watches, and you'll see that the prices are pretty reasonable. There's no point people bemoaning that they cost a lot more than they did 10 years ago. It's as petty as moaning that petrol used to be £2.00 a gallon in the UK 10 years ago, and now it's £7. It's called inflation, and applies to every product all over the world, whether it be a packet of crisps, an anally intrusive dildo, or a fake watch!

I get it to a degree, but considering microbrands also include unique design and development, marketing, customer service, quality control then you realise how far they make the money go. Considering reps have almost none of that then you wonder why it's still issues with wonky markers, dusty movements. Oh yes, it's organised crime and lining the pockets of the guys involved.

I'm still here though and probably always will be, I just don't get caught up in the hype

I love my reps and the journey they bring but I just think we have to be realistic.

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FudgyDocker

Let's take the 4130 movement, for example. There are 201 individual parts to it and, let's say it costs £4-5k to buy from someone selling Rolex parts. The Chinese are replicating every single one of those 201 parts, albeit maybe not the same quality. The factory has to source every single one of those parts, every person in the supply chain has to make a profit, someone that's reasonably skilled has to assemble it, and end result is that you have a 90%+ passable clone of the movement. And yet you can buy it for about £400. I'd say that's pretty bloody fantastic if we're talking about being realistic.

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tribefan
46 minutes ago, FudgyDocker said:

Chinese fakes, yes. Cheap, no! Just think about all the work that's gone into creating these 'Chinese fakes'. Take off the fake branding and you'll see, for the most part, that they are essentially pretty well made mechanical watches. Now compare that to a mid-range micro brand who make roughly the same quality watches, and you'll see that the prices are pretty reasonable. There's no point people bemoaning that they cost a lot more than they did 10 years ago. It's as petty as moaning that petrol used to be £2.00 a gallon in the UK 10 years ago, and now it's £7. It's called inflation, and applies to every product all over the world, whether it be a packet of crisps, an anally intrusive dildo, or a fake watch!

In the guitar world, those cheap Japanese copies that you could buy in the late 70's early 80's for $100 - $300 are now going for $1000-$1500. Just 5 years ago you could find them for $300-$500 and they were considered a poor man's Les Paul. Once the market caught onto the build quality they skyrocketed because the supply is limited. You can still buy cheap versions of them for $400, but the ones that had high quality from top factories go for big bucks.

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fatarms

I think we all understand how the newer reps with the clone movements cost more and expect that to be the case.

The OP is talking about how replicas from years ago, now out of production, once bought for $250 or so can be sold now for $600 claiming that they are rare and in pristine shape.  It goes against the no profiteering thing but also tests the waters across the street on market driven prices of discontinued, sought after reps while tossing the no profiteering thing out the window.

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FudgyDocker
20 minutes ago, fatarms said:

once bought for $250 or so can be sold now for $600 claiming that they are rare and in pristine shape

Well, it obviously doesn't apply to ALL old reps, some haven't stood the test of time in that they are just old reps, but there are certain ones that were highly regarded in their time, are in very short supply now and are highly sought after. Sometimes they really are extremely rare and in pristine shape because people have looked after them. For example, if a Noob Pam 127 came up for grabs, there'd be a massive punch-up for it. You curb that punch up to a degree by marking it up, justifiably (in my opinion). 

The profiteering rule means something different I think (in my opinion, again), as it prevents people just trying to flip a watch for a quick profit, with no rhyme or reason why.

I think @tribefans comment pretty much covers it.  

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deju

I've mention this a few times in regards to profiteering.

Profiteering by definition is "the practice of making or seeking to make an excessive or unfair profit."

If something is rare / discontinued then in some cases there will be a premium on the watch, now this shouldn't just be a number picked out the air, usually a seller will set the price he is willing to sell for. Then the market decides. Either it will get snapped up with a queue of buyers, or it won't and they need to lower the price.

What is profiteering is if you buy a watch from a TD and then want way more than you paid, no scarcity/rarity.  Usually hidden in the guise of I fixed x/y/z or I've added patina etc     

For instance the Omega Ploppy is a unicorn, a V3 was probably $300 new when out. We will literally fight swords at dawn to get one for $600 now. We the market have set the value of the watch, it is not unfair for the seller to sell at this price. That is the going rate.   

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deju
32 minutes ago, fatarms said:

It goes against the no profiteering thing 

It doesn't. Rare and discontinued bring in a lot of factors that are to be considered, it's completely market driven. While reserved sales don't require to be listed on M2M, it's a great way to keep track of values of rare stuff. 

The rules on profiteering will always be enforced. 

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Philiusmaximus

Hey this has prompted a conversation and that's a good thing. Usually I just sit there refreshing m2m every 60 seconds

But I still think we are being taken for mugs with the crazy prices :D

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thejudge

It a modern day cancer that everyone is trying to see anything physical as investment and trying to capitalise on it, Houses, Cars, Watches etc.. 

If you guys want to see a real bonker resale market look at Graded video games!!! or Graded VHS tapes!!!

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tribefan
1 hour ago, deju said:

It doesn't. Rare and discontinued bring in a lot of factors that are to be considered, it's completely market driven. While reserved sales don't require to be listed on M2M, it's a great way to keep track of values of rare stuff. 

The rules on profiteering will always be enforced. 

It all depends on which market you are talking about. Here, we can let the M2M decide cuz the members aren't goin to buy a dog and can spot one in heartbeat. Next door it would be a free for all. And IRL the "market' is why we have $160K 5711's.

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Philiusmaximus

A fool and his money...

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Abe Fromen
1 hour ago, Philiusmaximus said:

A fool and his money...

We're totally in line here. Do I regret selling my 243 to get ... damn I can't recall now. But yes, yes I do. Would I pay US$600 for one now? Hell no, no I would not. 

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Mystery Shopper
7 hours ago, Philiusmaximus said:

 cheap Chinese fakes. Let's not forget.

The phrase insinuates that they are poor quality & destined to fail. Many of us have had our reps for a decade or more and they are still going. 

The factories don't turn out new models like they used to so I can see why these old models are popular.

I remember Ding's TC sub going quickly- he just asked us in the staff room what they were going for and it went in a flash.

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CurioLeo

Selling something for more than you bought it for is not profiteering.  Selling for more than what could be reasonably bought elsewhere is.

That 243 you no doubt had in mind which triggered this conversation is overpriced for what it is - a HF with a problematic bezel pip. A fair market value for it is more like $500 USD max.  However, it is still a consensual super rep, in short supply and high demand and it can't be reasonably bought elsewhere if everyone who has one refuses to sell theirs.  Frankly, it is irrelevant what YOU would be willing to pay for it. If someone else is willing to pay more than you, then that's the fair market value.  Until such time as another factory releases a top notch 243 replica and sells it for $348 (hint, not gonna happen) expecting to buy it for maximum what it cost new is just wishful thinking. 

For the record, I sold the virtually unworn Noob v3 243 for $700 USD in a mutually agreed reserved sale and I am sure that transaction provided the precedent for the $600 asking price.  

When the 243 came out, a gen could be picked up for around $7k AUD.  Now you are not going to find one under $10k AUD (give or take a few hundred either way).  Clearly, someone who missed the opportunity to spend under $400 USD to get (visually) 95% of a $7k AUD watch isn't going to baulk at $700 USD to get a $10k USD watch.  Not everyone has the same value filter.

BTW, there is this thing called inflation..... $400 when the Noob first came out is now comfortably more than $500 at 3% inflation - even more so, if the last couple of years at 5% + is taken into account.  Given that depreciation doesn't apply to desirable, discontinued  goods, all of that inflation is applicable as appreciation. 

Having said all that.......I don't disagree with the assertion that replicas are getting too expensive and I would rather put my money into gens.  Ironically, I have been able to sell highly collectible replicas much, much easier than equally collectible vintage gen watches which I priced at not much more, and in the case of the 213 rattrapante and the 5218-202a less,  than the rep price. Go figure ........    

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