Raffle Dials parts - What can we do? (and what not)

[AlexFelix 197]

Ok, some parts has arrived today. Sadly no Sub dials,  they should come this week with another package, hopefully. 

Let's start with disassembly. Those cases have the infamous wire-spring retainer bezel. Mostly hated. But once you forget that it's there, is all good. By the way, and to be honest, I prefer JKf old gen construction: easier to disassemble/reassemble. More skilled people than me can tell you that with old gen construction you can machine the case etc to build frankerolex, but that's not our case.

Overall measurement on those are quite accurate, though I haven't compared em to a gen one, yet. Probably they're a little thicker than gen just by eye measuring. No serial stamp on the case back nor between the lugs.

 

So, first thing to do of course is to remove all the parts such as case-back, crown, movement ring, rubber gaskets, and of course the plexi. 

 

   

At this point you can press out the plexi simply using your fingers or a press. The plexi should not be glued, but it can have a very tight fit, such as the 1680 in the picture that required the press. No big deal.

With the plexi out you can remove the bezel insert by using a razor blade. It should be glued on the bezel with a 3M double-sided tape. Again no big deal and it will came off easily. 

   

 

Now you have access to the bezel and its wire-spring. As first time pulling it out can be tough. I use the razor blade to lift one of the end, then the pliers to take it off completely,

  

 

At this point you can put the bezel in an acetone bath. That will dissolve the double sided tape. If some residue are hard to die, you can remove em with a toothpick.

 

Now the fun and hard part begin. The 1680 have sharp lugs, so we need to create a small bevel on em. You can use whatever you prefer. A Dremel is faster yet tougher to use for a first timer. Some file would do the work too. Probably sanding stick too, but this would be a very slow process.

First of all, prior to cut the bevel, I drill the holes to 1.25mm (you can use NCRich method for this, I used a lathe, so pic are useless for most of you), but that's up to you. You can do the bevel first and do the re-drill later. But in my opinion, have the holes already drilled to exact measure, give you a better visual of how much material you have/can remove while beveling.

I used the Dremel.

First I marked the side of the case and the lugs with a sharpie to have a better idea of where I 'eat' material, but I split the process in the 2 parts. First attempt I remove less than half material needed. Then proceed to sand with a 600grit sandpaper. In the 2nd attempt I re-mark with the sharpie and proceed to remove the remaining material giving it more angle while grinding. At this point not much room for error, tough there's no exact rules to do it: just take a gen picture and try to make it look similar, it will be okay. You can see some awful case out there, but you know, for a 50/60yr old watch case...

 

At this point you should have something that look like that.

  

 

As you can see by the pic, I tend to be more precise that I could, but keep in mind that those watches were workhorse, and they came trough 50+ years of usage, and you don't want something with 50years of battling that look like a brand new piece of jewelry.

 

So, move one. In the next days I'll upload pic of:

-'brasing' the bezel

-Aging the bezel insert with bleach

-Reinstall the bezel wire-spring

-Reinstall the plexi (without glue)/swapping plexi with Clark's one

-Aging the dial (spray technique etc) 

-Install the movement (SeaGull ST2130)

-Adapt the dial feet for the movement

-Install the movement, the dial and hands

-Fitting the stem

-Full assembly of the watch

 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2023 by AlexFelix

[NCRich 13,747]

Always cool to see this. 

[AlexFelix 197]

5 minutes ago, NCRich said:

Always cool to see this. 

I had a good teacher.

[AlexFelix 197]

So, let's update this a bit. Probably at this point you could be a little confused as I'll jump from a topic to another, but this won't be an enciclopedia on how to mod a specific watch, there's better tutorial for that.  But it will be a sort of guideline of what you can achieve using Raffle Dials parts, or other parts, and some good 'ol practice.

 

Anyway, I received this 1016 Explorer Super Precision a while back along with another 1016 Explorer 4 line.  What I did to both dials was:

-Spray 2 light coat of matte acrylic clear coat. I tend to spray it at an harm distance, so to catch just the 'mist' of the spray. It will give a nice and uneven texture.

-Put it in the oven for 8/10 min at 120°. It will flatten the paint and harden it. Then another run at higher temperature (I tried 180/200°), checking it every 3 minutes or less. This will (should) bake it and marker should change colour to more caramel-yellow/brown. Keep in mind that baking at very high temperature can literally cook the paint and make it lift ruining the dial. Be very carefull.

-Spray another 2 (max 4) very light matte clear coat. At a quite far distance you should be able to catch the 'mist' of the spray again. I usually put the dial on a long toothpic and rotate it with the finger while spraying with the other hand. Be carefull that acrylic can be a bitch and if you overspray (i.e. put too much paint) it won't harden and will stay soft.

-Let it dry overnight.

 

At this point, I'll try to match the marker colour on the hand by reluming em. Is a slow process but not that hard to master.

 

To make the lume paste I use a common green luminous powder (bought on Amazon), and white glue as binder. To stain/tint it just use watercolor. I usually do some sets of hands per time if the lume paste colour turn out particularly nice, like this case. It could be hard to obtain the same colour by baking another dial but this will be a problem for the future me. By the way you can alway remove the lume and do it again. 

  On those pic the lume look more yellowish than it actually is, You will see it later.

 

Let the hands dry at least 30 minute.

 

Applying the hands on the dial/movement, and we can see a perfect match.

 

 

 

At this point is just a matter of carefully reassemble the watch.

On the following pic you can also better see the uneven texture given by the matte acrylic paint.

 

 

And the final results.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2023 by AlexFelix

[trailboss99 994]

Nice work mate!

[NCRich 13,747]

Cool, looks great!

[AlexFelix 197]

2 hours ago, trailboss99 said:

Nice work mate!

 

1 hour ago, NCRich said:

Cool, looks great!

Thank you both!

Edited January 26, 2023 by AlexFelix

[JSebwc 87]

nice work on the case and really impressed on how the explorer dial had turned out.   well done.   great job matching the lume on the hands....the explorer case needs some aging now.    

looking fwd to seeing more .

 

 

[AlexFelix 197]

24 minutes ago, JSebwc said:

nice work on the case and really impressed on how the explorer dial had turned out.   well done.   great job matching the lume on the hands....the explorer case needs some aging now.    

looking fwd to seeing more .

 

 

Ohh damn! Those words by you means a lot!

 

I want to do some aging on it but I’m afraid to start…any advice are welcome!

[JSebwc 87]

7 hours ago, AlexFelix said:

Ohh damn! Those words by you means a lot!

 

I want to do some aging on it but I’m afraid to start…any advice are welcome!

Yes,   When it comes to again, Less is more,  but it all depends on the look you are after....  a safe queen to a heavily used tool watch.  generally somewhere a bit in-between is ideal 

I would soften the case edges a bit and dull out the polished sides and  then let wearing it do the rest.  I find if you go hard with the again, it looks very forced and fake.   

 

Does the case still have the sapphire crystal or did you swap in a T12 acrylic?  that would be my next move. 

[AlexFelix 197]

4 minutes ago, JSebwc said:

Yes,   When it comes to again, Less is more,  but it all depends on the look you are after....  a safe queen to a heavily used tool watch.  generally somewhere a bit in-between is ideal 

I would soften the case edges a bit and dull out the polished sides and  then let wearing it do the rest.  I find if you go hard with the again, it looks very forced and fake.   

 

Does the case still have the sapphire crystal or did you swap in a T12 acrylic?  that would be my next move. 

Currently still have the crystal it came, I see that Ken added few more models with bubble plexi and domed bezel, in fact swapping crystal is something I’m more afraid to do because of the measurement.

 

Anyway, to dull it you have a specific method? I thought about disassemble it completely and put it in a box full of fine sea sand

[AlexFelix 197]

Another day another watchsmith-ish-ery-sort-of-thing.

 

Well, I had those 2 cartel JKf 1680 and 5513. What I like about those is the old gen construction. What I hate is basically everything else. I KNOW that for the price they're the best working-base available to basically do -nearly- everything you want, but those dials...Jesus. The only pro I could find (but consider I am not a master in any way) is that the lume is very bright but yet VERY thin. That mean you can re-lume without stripping the factory paste, which is honestly my favourite method but a discrete pin in the ass to do. 

Also, as the lume is that thin, it look like you can bake the shit out of it in the oven but it won't change colour, so that's another cons and you may want to consider it.

 

So, as you can see going on, I choosed to re-spray and re-overlume both dial and hands. Of course there is also insert bleaching, case hole re-drilling and minor stuff.

 

Let's start with the 5513:

 

Here on the following pic you can see the already re-sprayied dial and the re-luming process. The paste is simply white glue without any luminescent powder, since well, you know, that's an old watch.

 On the left side I deliberately left the 9 not re-lumed to show you the difference. ''Babyshit yellow.''

 

To spry it, I used my usual method: 2 light coat of matte acrylic at an harm distance, then 10min in the oven at 180°, then another 2 light coat, again 10min in the oven.

 

 

 

First application of the new 'lume'. The glue is tinted with watercolour, and since there's no luminescent powder in it, it means that it  will dry thin. So 2 application is needed.

 

 Here's the 2nd application. The triangle look bad but is just my trademark crappy pic.

 

After this process I usually seal the whole with another very gentle light coat of matte acrylic and let it dry for 30min (pretty much). After that I re-lume the hands and basically start the reassembly.  You can see the end result in the following pic.

 

 The insert came out great, it have a green-ish vibe that I love. Also the dial have a great texture, now.

 

The plexi is still the cartel one. I know, it's freakin ugly, but ordering a Clark's from Italy is not cost effective, as of now. 

 

 

Jump on the 1680:


What's weird is that both case are marked 1680. Dunno why. Not a big deal.

 

Basically same process as above, but this time there's luminescent powder in the mix. I tried to achieve the same colour, look like I'm starting to master it yet I of course seen better colour made by others.

 

 I tried to no fully cover the factory lume to give it a sort of natural aging feel. 

 

This time just 1 coat of new lume. 

 

 Achieved the same nice texture on the dial. 

 

And the full reassembled watch. 

 

 

 

On the sun it look even better (imho)

 

 

This watch have a damaged movement tho, I noticed it while reassembling: the pinion is way short or broken so the seconds hand don't fully engage it. I ordered a new movement, so in the next days I'll post new picture of some minor servicing. I'll also try to make vintage pearl insert, but that's new for me either.

 

Anyway, here's a small yet partial conclusion:

 

-The dials from Raffle are WAY better than JKf dials. WAY better. Straight from factory. Better finish, better lume, better lume paste. 

-The case from JKf are accurate in dimension, and the bezel have old gen construction. The Raffle case have wire-spring bezel, so not gen spec. 

-The bracelet from JKf are nice, but stamp feel cheap. The bracelet from Raffle look more solid and the stamp more authentic.

-In my opinion look like JKf watch have better crown, and better insert too. 

-Raffle case have sapphire crystal (if not advertised as plexi). JKf have plexi crystal which is wrong in dimension/spec for what I understood, so you need to replace em anyway (if you want)

 

Edited January 31, 2023 by AlexFelix

[JSebwc 87]

great job on the lume work.  espcially for doing two coats on the first dial.   Are you a surgeon with such steady hands? haha

That is a very good idea to use glue.  I also very much like how you left some of the old lume exposed, it gives it depth and variation...great idea

and those inserts!!  WOW  what is your secret??  I need to fade a few inserts' for a sub project Im working on and yours turned out perfect!   from raffles?

well done my man..

[AlexFelix 197]

29 minutes ago, JSebwc said:

great job on the lume work.  espcially for doing two coats on the first dial.   Are you a surgeon with such steady hands? haha

I'm a full time guitar builder, so precision is mandatory with uber-fine sanding and inlaying, so let's say I'm used to precision work

29 minutes ago, JSebwc said:

That is a very good idea to use glue.  I also very much like how you left some of the old lume exposed, it gives it depth and variation...great idea

 

For the glue, I took the idea from NCRich, and for the old lume exposed I just looked at a couple hundred gen pic ahaha and tried to be more close as possible, but since they age differently from each other, there's no right way to do it. But yea, I admit that 1680 came out very well. I then re-did the 5513 cause it was too much orange for my taste.

29 minutes ago, JSebwc said:

and those inserts!!  WOW  what is your secret??  I need to fade a few inserts' for a sub project Im working on and yours turned out perfect!   from raffles?

Well, those 2 you see are cartel JK factory clone, I simply put em in bleach from 10+10+10min checking it constantly and stopping it when I like em. Consider that bleach will dissolve the paint or whatever it is so when you pull it out of the bleach and clean it under tap water, it will loose again other paint so, the time you have it in bleach is essential depending on the level of aging you want to achieve. I believe the minimum is 10min. That can be ok for cartel and Raffle dials, other kind of stuff can be damaged in 3min or so.

Edited February 2, 2023 by AlexFelix

[AlexFelix 197]

Allright. I was googling for some 5513 Explorer dial, and I just realized how much the crown guards on the JKf are wrong (depending on the reference year and what you want to achieve). 
 

By the following pic you can see the CG of a 1965 5513. 


 

 They’re basically square and flat. On the JK are overall round. 
 

I’ll guess to have found the next mod to do.

Edited February 2, 2023 by AlexFelix

[JSebwc 87]

oh a guitar builder...very cool   that does explain alot.     I build custom furniture so  I can relate to attention to detail.  us artsy /crafty types have a knack for this type of work.  

[JSebwc 87]

RE: Crown guards.  It really depends on what year you are building the watch to be from.   as they changed the CG 3 times iirc through  time.

 

http://www.5513mattedial.com/TheSequence.html

[paul837 6]

Really interesting post, thanks for sharing the details.

[NH_Vintage 101]

What is your process for Brassing the Bezel?

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