Newbie needs advice from experienced members

[Hot Little Xixi 12]

You all are way more experienced than I am, so I'd really appreciate any help you can give me. I'm totally confused with this problem and have no idea what's happening. 

I have a genuine ETA 2824-2 movement, the real deal, made in Switzerland, and I'm trying to install it into a rep. It runs fine, I installed the proper size hands and the hands will move around the dial when turning the stem, the date wheel will reset and also turns over at midnight, and the hacking works fine. It also winds from the stem. After installing the hands the seconds hand runs fine but the minute hand isn't moving as the seconds hand sweeps around the entire dial. I don't know if the hour is moving but I don't think so. What would cause everything to work except the minute (and maybe hour) hand to not move? It's not binding on anything because it moves easily when turning the crown.  

Should I try adding a drop of Mobius oil down the pinion shafts? Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

Kisses,

-Xi

[GenTLe 1,510]

The minute hand pinion takes movement from the lower part of one pinion of the train gear.

Not sure if I'm able to explain, buy I try...

Look at this oiling chart, the gear nr.11 is the so called 3rd wheel (being the 1st the one on the mainspring barrel and the 4th the one where the second hand is applied, in the pic nr. 12 var; consider that the motion goes from the teeth on the mainspring barrel to the nr. 10, 11, 12, 9 and then there's the pallet fork and the balance)

 

Here you have the 2824 (but the 2836 is the same) from the bottom side, where the autowind bridge goes on (note the gear 11):

 

And here you have the 2824 dial side, again note the gear 11:

 

This is a closeup view of the gear 11:

You can see it has 2 pinions. The one that is next to the big brass wheel transmits the motion to the 4th wheel, while the one at the opposite side of the shaft transmits the movement to the gear where the minute hand is attached (which is called the driving wheel of the cannon pinion):

 

Like this:

 

And the "cannon pinion with driving wheel" transmit the motion to the hour hand this way:

 

SO...

I see 3 possibilities: 

1) the 3rd gear (11) has missed its pinion for whatever reason, or the pinion is loose (I think it's impossible, but never say never)

2) the "cannon pinion with driving wheel" for whatever reason isn't properly set or geared with the 3rd gear (maybe some broken teeth, maybe it's not well placed...)

3) the "cannon pinion with driving wheel" has a clutch, which is meant to permit you to set the time without trashing the 3rd wheel pinion, either it's too loose or completely detached, like in this picture:

 

Soooo....

1st of all remove hands and dial, then:

a) remove the hour wheel (where the hour hand is attached), nr1 below

b) remove the minute bridge screw (nr2 below)

c) remove the minute bridge (3 below)

d) remove the minute wheel (4 below)

e) you may need also to remove the date disk (where the 1 -> 31 numbers are printed) and the screw and the part that is kept by that screw next to the nr. 21/22 on the date disk in the picture below (I don't remember right now)

and then you'll have free complete access to the "cannon pinion with driving wheel" and be able to remove it and check what the problem is.

[als86 5,460]

Absolute detail as always @GenTLe great to read your explanations and learn from you! An asset to the forum , thank you Sir.

[Hot Little Xixi 12]

GenTLe- thank you so much for taking the time to respond with the beautiful illustrations. I delved into the 2824 today before seeing your response and had the date wheel and minute bridge off and when I touched near the center with tweezers the cannon pinion jumped up off the driving wheel and went flying. I found it and replaced it but it wasn't attached to the driving wheel like it should be. The movement has been laying around for years and I'm not sure if any gears are messed up or lacking oil. It's running in the run position and hacking on the second position out and the keyless works look like they're working okay. Just something in the gears driving the hands isn't right. I got tired of messing with it after a few hours and I'm  probably going to let it sit until I have a little more experience working on movements until I attack it again. I'm just going to use a new PT5000  instead. I'm comfortable with regulating 2813s, 3804s and 2824s and 2836s but I'm nervous taking movements apart beyond changing rotors or removing winding bridges on 2824s and 2836s. Maybe in the future I'll feel like getting back onto the gen ETA 2824. It is a beautiful movement. 

Thanks again for your help. I'll keep your photos and diagrams for my next attempt.

Hugs and kisses,

-Xi

 

 

 

 

[GenTLe 1,510]

9 hours ago, Hot Little Xixi said:

GenTLe- thank you so much for taking the time to respond with the beautiful illustrations. I delved into the 2824 today before seeing your response and had the date wheel and minute bridge off and when I touched near the center with tweezers the cannon pinion jumped up off the driving wheel and went flying. I found it and replaced it but it wasn't attached to the driving wheel like it should be. The movement has been laying around for years and I'm not sure if any gears are messed up or lacking oil. It's running in the run position and hacking on the second position out and the keyless works look like they're working okay. Just something in the gears driving the hands isn't right. I got tired of messing with it after a few hours and I'm  probably going to let it sit until I have a little more experience working on movements until I attack it again. I'm just going to use a new PT5000  instead. I'm comfortable with regulating 2813s, 3804s and 2824s and 2836s but I'm nervous taking movements apart beyond changing rotors or removing winding bridges on 2824s and 2836s. Maybe in the future I'll feel like getting back onto the gen ETA 2824. It is a beautiful movement. 

Thanks again for your help. I'll keep your photos and diagrams for my next attempt.

Hugs and kisses,

-Xi

Oh, so it was the nr 3) upper  Not bad, quite common for what I've seen 

Yeah either get a PT5000 or a seagull ST2130 (they are more or less equivalent): if that movement was around from years in any case it would need a proper cleaning and service for sure, before use!

Uh... "Hugs and kisses"? Are you a lady? Wow, you must be the only one here (apart from Tanya of @TanGo who is a strap maker and a polite lady too)  Be brave in this lions den!

[Hot Little Xixi 12]

I got a Seagull ST2130 to replace the ETA 2824 movement and I'm impressed by the quality and performance. I also just received three PT5000 movements for another project  yesterday and was even more impressed with them! Can't wait to install them and see how they run. 

Yes I'm an Asian female, Chinese actually.  Unfortunately my entire photo wouldn't load on my profile so you're missing a real treat...I guess I have hobbies that aren't typically female...

I was also looking at possibly replacing a 3804 with a Hangzhou 6460 movement to get the  28,800 sweep but in my research I've read that people are having problems with 2836 seconds hands not fitting on 6460s for some reason. Any thoughts? 

I've also been looking at Rolex 6542s and can't figure why every rep I see has a 28,800 A2836 in it when the gen had a  low best movement. They get everything so perfect but don't offer it with a 3804... Strange.

 

 

 

Edited April 25, 2023 by Hot Little Xixi
Spelling. English is my second language...

[GenTLe 1,510]

On 25/04/2023 at 07:27, Hot Little Xixi said:

Yes I'm an Asian female, Chinese actually.  Unfortunately my entire photo wouldn't load on my profile so you're missing a real treat...I guess I have hobbies that aren't typically female...

I was also looking at possibly replacing a 3804 with a Hangzhou 6460 movement to get the  28,800 sweep but in my research I've read that people are having problems with 2836 seconds hands not fitting on 6460s for some reason. Any thoughts? 

I've also been looking at Rolex 6542s and can't figure why every rep I see has a 28,800 A2836 in it when the gen had a  low best movement. They get everything so perfect but don't offer it with a 3804... Strange.

 

 

 

Yep, not typical, but still a nice one

The hands for the 2836 and the HZ 6460 should be the same, the only thing I can think of is the opposite: trying to fit a 2836 in a watch designed for the HZ6460 can be problematic because the height of the hand posts may be shorter and therefore the hands touching the dial...

About the low beat Rolex, I can't say for a GMT, but for a date/time one you can get an old swatch with an ETA 2846 (it's the low beat version of the 2836) inside and service that and use it in the Rolex (I did it for a vintage DRSD I built years ago). The low beat version of the 2824 is instead the 2842.

Eventually, once you got a 2846 you can service it, change the mainspring (beware, you need a dedicated mainspring like this from CousinsUK: 

), and transfer on it the parts that make it a GMT from the HZ6460. Mainly the hand post for the GMT, hour & minute hands and the 4th wheel where the second hand goes, plus the few other bits on the upper part of the movement that transfer the movement to the GMT gear.