Daytona 6239 FAP: El Peruano

[LHOOQ 0]

I've been asked about my 6239 a couple of times, and I hate linking off-site. So here's a repost about the biggest franken project I've ever undertaken.

 

[Originally posted 5 June 2011]

 

 

I'm a latecomer to the vintage Daytona scene. It wasn't until the end of 2009 that I first learned of the existence of a decent manual-wind 6263 rep. ChiMan123 had mentioned a $100 Daytona kit, and after some research, I learned about Spinmaster. Spooked by Spin's prices, I did some more research and discovered the source--DW. That led me to RWGForum-Rolex, which has guys who have been assembling V72 Daytona frankens since 2005.

 

 

As happy as I was (and continue to be) with the 7750-powered Daytonas, the idea of a Valjoux 72-based franken was very alluring. The catalyst for the project would be finding that movement, which isn't easy when you're located thousands of miles away from most sellers. In the past year, I've had a bunch of near-misses and a couple of big regrets during my search. The biggest of these were a pair of serviced Clebar chronographs that sold for around $500 each. I doubt we'll ever see V72s at that price again, but those lost movements taught me never to hesitate.

 

My original concept for this build was a 6239 with a standard black dial. A 'Big Red' 6263 was my old dream, but DW really raised the bar with his 6239. But why a black dial? It was never my intention to collect nothing but silver-dialed Daytonas. I had wanted a black dial for my 6239/7750, but DW was out of stock at the time. Black dial and brown leather is the look I wanted, and here's a mockup of how it might have turned out.

 

 

Use your imagination! However, things rarely go according to plan, and a bit of luck turned this build into “Argentona IIIâ€.

 

Movement

For more than a year, my weekly eBay ritual involved running through a long list of vintage Valjoux 72 chronographs. After all, only chumps would bid on a listing with "valjoux 72" in the header! This wasn't a quick and easy road, of course, and it wasn't until February that I found a re-listing of a LeJour with a very fair BIN price. It turned out that the original auction's winner had bailed, and the seller had just re-listed for a quick sale. With the help of a very good and trusted friend, I was able to pounce on it. Very big thanks to alligoat, without whom I could not have started this project.

 

Say goodbye to the rather nice LeJour:

 

 

And here is its heart, in all its column-wheely, switch-and-geary, chronograph-y glory:

 

 

Out of curiosity, I ordered DW's set of replacement bridges. A brief review: The chronograph bridge is actually quite nice. The train bridge is not so good, with poor spacing on the text and a stained-looking surface. The balance bridge is fair, but rough around the edges. They all look terrible in macros, though.

 

 

In the end, I didn't install any of them, primarily in the interest of reliability.

 

Fixing the movement to the case was a trickier task than expected, and the V72 was prone to shifting around. My watchsmith's first attempt involved trimming the LeJour's movement ring to fit inside the DW case. I was surprised it even squeezed in, but the movement didn't line up with the stem. Eventually, he settled on two clamps (one beneath the balance, one above the column wheel) and a semi-circular shim. So far, so good, as it's keeping good time and the chronograph has just counted 12 hours without stoppage.

 

 

Case

After looking over my available options, I decided to go with DW because his case lists for about a tenth of Jewelry & Watch's 6239. Also, it's a pretty damn good case, whereas Phong's is a repurposed 6263.

 

My biggest problem with the DW 6239 case is what I've often referred to as "The Tumah". (See: Schwarzenegger, A. Kindergarten Cop, 1990.) There's simply too much metal on the crown-side, and it results in a shelf protruding beneath the bezel. This is correct on the 6263, but not for the earlier Daytonas. (I realize there are two versions of the genuine 6239 case, but the second series is really more of a pimple beneath the crown.)

 

Another issue I wanted addressed was the overall pointiness and sharpness of the case. I've had the good fortune to examine and handle a few genuine 6239s in the past year, and one feature that stands out is the bluntness of the lugs compared to the newer 6263s. Some of this "softness" is due to age, but there are significant differences between the two case designs.

 

So I contacted the Lathemaster General, jmb, and asked him to excise the unsightly lump, blunt the lugs, smooth all edges, and give the case a trip to his legendary bucket of metal shavings. In contrast to my previous Daytonas, I wanted a well-used look.

 

 

 

Not long before Justin received my case, he had bought himself a nice CNC rig. I was determined to see it put to good use. My first idea was to replicate the first-generation 6239 bezel. (That's a 300UPH with no dots and a lot of radial lines.) Unfortunately, engraving a round, sloped surface would require an expensive upgrade of the rig. Back to flat surfaces, then, and there really was only one engraving I could think of: That of the Peruvian Air Force. You'll have to forgive me for not going into the history of FAP Rolexes, but there are better tellings of that story elsewhere on the web.

 

I sent J a pile of photos and let him go to work. Here, Dr. J administers rough medicine to the hapless DW case:

 

 

And these pictures should make it clear just how extensive the surgery was. The entire crown side, from lug-tip to lug-tip, was shaved away, moving the crown inboard by nearly one whole crown-width. Missing are the pusher indents you would see on the gen, but this is really a fault of the case. Compared to the gen, the DW case sides are slightly thicker (from bezel to caseback), while the pushers are situated slightly higher (i.e. closer to the bezel). The indents you see on the gen are the bottoms of the pusher counterbores. On the DW, these indents don't reach the bottom of the case sides.

 

 

Compare the DW 6239/7750's "shelf" with the crown-side of the modified case:

 

 

It took Justin a few tries to get the engraving right. Early experiments were performed on an aluminum sheet, but once he got the bit size right, it was onto hard steel. As a final touch, J filled in the letters with a fine pen, to simulate the chipping and faded enamel seen in genuine FAP engravings.

 

 

I'm not Peruvian, nor do I have any particular affinity for their Air Force, but I get a big smile every time I take the Daytona off and see the caseback. I'd call it a great success for jmb and his new rig.

 

Dial

As previously mentioned, I started off planning to use a DW dial--standard black, with a white 'DAYTONA' at 6 o'clock. Nice enough, but with a few key annoyances:

 

1. Flat subdials: There's not even a hint of dishing. This wouldn't be so bad if it weren't for the thick circular indent marking the "bottom" of the subdials. There's no

2. Coronet: I meant to replace the DW coronet with a genuine piece. I'd even bought a few old dials as potential donors, though all of these had the tighter-lipped Beyeler coronets, rather than the correct, wide-mouthed Singer.

3. Indices: This became an obsession of mine for several weeks. The metal hour markers on DW's dials are conspicuously flat--less than half as tall as they are on the gen. Really anal stuff, but I was determined to replace them either with newly fabricated pieces, or modified blocks from a Datejust dial. I never did figure out a solution, but an alternative presented itself.

 

While trawling eBay for parts, I found a listing for a "refinished 6239 dial". Ho-hum, right? But it was a silver 6239 with a wide 'DAYTONA'. As far as I knew, none of our usual "refinishing" friends (i.e. Phong, Yuki, and NDT) carried such a dial. Upon further investigation, I soon realized that it was an honest-to-goodness refinished dial i.e. a genuine dial restored. mcotter and alligoat helped me verify the dial, so I bid. I'm certain that the "refinished" tag made it a much easier auction for me to win.

 

 

It didn't look so good in the listing. The text looked rough and I was turned off by the slight greenish tinge to the lume dots. But I quickly spotted several tells, and they were directly related to my planned mods of the DW dial: First was the genuine Singer coronet, which has never been replicated properly by anyone. Next were the tall hour markers. As you can see in the picture, these are almost as high as Datejust blocks. Finally, as rough as the edges of the RCD looked, the layout of the text was identical to documented gens. The letters on the left half looked bolder than the right, and my guess is that most of the restoration happened there.

 

What I couldn't see in the listing's pictures were the grooves in the shallow subdials. These are extremely fine (similar to a Speedmaster's, for example) and impossible to see without magnification and appropriate lighting. The print quality within the subdials is excellent.

 

 

To be honest, I bought the dial thinking I might send it in for a re-refinishing. I changed my mind as soon as I received it. What a find!

 

Bezel

Another lucky find at a good price, this 6265 bezel came from a well-known Rolex seller. The listing was six months old, and no one was biting despite regular price drops. It's seen better days, but its level of wear was exactly what I was looking for. I paid a fair price, considering how much gen bezels usually sell for, but cheaper isn't the same as cheap: This was the second-most expensive item in this build, after the LeJour.

 

 

If nothing else, the gen shows just how good DW's 300UPH bezel is. Disregard DW's too-tight inner diameter, and you can see how he almost nailed the fonts and spacing. (If only his 200UPHs were as nice.) Also note the brownish color of the paint within the numerals. I thought it was rust when I saw it in the listing, but thankfully this wasn't the case.

 

I should point out that one of the most difficult parts in the assembly was fitting the gen bezel onto the gen crystal. For some reason, the bezel would pop back up right after being pressed down to the crystal's base. The only way to solve this was by sanding a bit off the bezel's inner diameter. No, not 0.3mm like on DW's bezel, but a very small amount. I don't get it, myself.

 

 

Other bits

I bought a pair of pushers from Ofrei for this build, but Justin couldn't get them to screw in. That's when I learned the horrible truth about DW's Daytona pushers: The diameter is correct (0.25mm), but the thread pitch is 0.25, versus 0.2 for the gens and gen-size pushers like Ofrei's or Cousins'.

 

I tried a Clark's Daytona handset, but it didn't look right. Clark's subdial hands, for example, are skinny needles--wrong for everything but the running seconds on an early 6239. So, I went back to DW's hands. The minute counter needed glue on the tube, so it would reset consistently. The minute/hour hands weren't relumed, but I stained them with iodine diluted with alcohol. Acrylic thinner was used to correct mistakes, without dissolving the lume.

 

The crown is a genuine 600, while the bracelet is a genuine mutt (7205 with 357 endlinks) transferred from my old 6239/7750. The crystal is a genuine Tropic 21 I've held in reserve for more than a year. It's good to plan ahead! I learned that lesson yet again at the very end of this project. Completion was delayed when I discovered that the LeJour's stem was a bloody Tap 8, rather than the Tap 10 that all good Rolexes use. For the past couple of weeks, I've been as impatient as this famous Peruvian:

 

 

Curiously, DW provided a free 7750 stem with his V72 case set. That was... nice of him.

 

Final Notes

Long post to cap a long build. If you skipped the text just to see the pictures, I forgive you. This is like a dump of my project notes, and a future reference for my own use. Building a V72 Daytona is like joining a small club filled with guys I admire and respect. Also, I get one really swell watch out of the deal. It's been long, expensive, frustrating, and exciting. But right now it just feels really good. :P

 

Thanks again to my Texas team, alligoat and jmb, for all your help.

 

[KeNnY 29]

I think I am in love with this watch

[SeanusMaximus 0]

:P

[wat44 0]

Sensational!!!

[watchsuechtig 0]

Congrats mate!

 

so awesome! i think thats a good couple

[Caliper 0]

BADASS!!!

 

I was about to reply you in spanish until I read you were not Peruvian, LOL

Was your original plan based on the Paul Newman 69 Daytona?

Edited August 4, 2011 by Caliper

[DW-Watches 0]

Wow,

I'm so glad I talked to you and you came over here.

I learn something new in each of your posts. Man, I know some of the stuff you mention is a little nit-picky, but it is good to hear. We like having the best, and it's good to know what could use some work.

 

Do you happen to know what company re-finished the dial? I used kirk rich once, for a DJ dial, but he's an asshole. Did good work, but I'll never go back. Yours looks great, I'd like to know who did it.

[Del 4,447]

What a project - I'm astounded. The watch looks fantastic, and reading the story of how it came to be was fascinating!

 

Thanks for posting.

[mspangl 0]

I love your write ups mate !

 

That's exactly the watch I wanted when I sent Mary the pic of a gen 6239 in a Vienneese vintage shop.

[LHOOQ 0]

Thanks for the great feedback, guys! I'd argue that most of the issues I brought up were A LOT nit-picky! An out-of-the-box DW or cartel Daytona will fool most onlookers, but that's not the point of these builds. I'm doing this to fool myself -even if only for a few seconds- into thinking, "So that's what it feels like..."

 

I was about to reply you in spanish until I read you were not Peruvian, LOL

Was your original plan based on the Paul Newman 69 Daytona?

I still remember a lot of my Spanish from high school and university, but I'd probably just cheat and use Google Translate! Based on the dial and bezel types, and the shape of the case, the rep is probably closest to a 6239 from 1967.

 

Do you happen to know what company re-finished the dial? I used kirk rich once, for a DJ dial, but he's an asshole. Did good work, but I'll never go back. Yours looks great, I'd like to know who did it.

Neither I nor the seller have a clue as to who did the work, except that it came in a tin marked "The Gould Company" of Dallas, Texas. I considered KR for the "re-refinishing" I mention in the OP, but I decided to leave well enough alone when I saw how good it actually looked. I've seen Kirk do some great work (e.g. the modded "6263-style" 16520 dial for one guy on TRF), but I've also seen him suck all the life out of some dials.

Edited August 4, 2011 by LHOOQ

[DW-Watches 0]

Thanks for the great feedback, guys! I'd argue that most of the issues I brought up were A LOT nit-picky! An out-of-the-box DW or cartel Daytona will fool most onlookers, but that's not the point of these builds. I'm doing this to fool myself -even if only for a few seconds- into thinking, "So that's what it feels like..."

 

I was about to reply you in spanish until I read you were not Peruvian, LOL

Was your original plan based on the Paul Newman 69 Daytona?

I still remember a lot of my Spanish from high school and university, but I'd probably just cheat and use Google Translate! Based on the dial and bezel types, and the shape of the case, the rep is probably closest to a 6239 from 1967.

 

Do you happen to know what company re-finished the dial? I used kirk rich once, for a DJ dial, but he's an asshole. Did good work, but I'll never go back. Yours looks great, I'd like to know who did it.

Neither I nor the seller have a clue as to who did the work, except that it came in a tin marked "The Gould Company" of Dallas, Texas. I considered KR for the "re-refinishing" I mention in the OP, but I decided to leave well enough alone when I saw how good it actually looked. I've seen Kirk do some great work (e.g. the modded "6263-style" 16520 dial for one guy on TRF), but I've also seen him suck all the life out of some dials.

 

I agree they do good work, but one thing that pissed me off when I was about to send in a dial was "I do not send Rolex service center any pictures why to you." Umm, because you're asking me for money, maybe?

[ww12345 0]

I just got finished looking at your PCG 5512 Gilt, and now this?!?!

Your pictures make it look gen! What is your secret? I tried taking some pics of mine to post, and they came out horrible!

[LHOOQ 0]

Your pictures make it look gen! What is your secret? I tried taking some pics of mine to post, and they came out horrible!

Steady platform, even lighting, and take your time to make sure everything's in focus? I forget who said this originally, but the secret to good photography is lots and lots of bad photography. At least you don't have to pay for film these days!

[robznet 0]

Now that is one beautiful watch - superb job!

[ww12345 0]

Your pictures make it look gen! What is your secret? I tried taking some pics of mine to post, and they came out horrible!

Steady platform, even lighting, and take your time to make sure everything's in focus? I forget who said this originally, but the secret to good photography is lots and lots of bad photography. At least you don't have to pay for film these days!

 

Yes, SD cards are quite inexpensive...

 

I must have taken about 65 shots - only two of which were usable.

[gB. 0]

Very nice project. Wear it well!

 

 

 

[stiltzkin 0]

Bump for some newbies....

 

Excellent work!

[LHOOQ 0]

UPDATE -- AUGUST 20, 2014

 

 

This is a long overdue update, but I've got excuses! In my defense, it's been an unusually hectic summer, and the time to sit down and write about watches has been in shorter supply than I'd like. Secondly, I still haven't put together a good photographic setup to match the one I had a couple of years ago. Well, to misquote Rumsefeld, you don't take pictures with the setup you wish you had. Similarly, you write using the free time you've got.

 

I moved back to Canada in 2012, and by the start of 2013 I was enjoying my proximity to one of our community's greats--The Zigmeister. He'd done an amazing job on several of my watches, and I figured I'd send him one of my favorites, the FAP 6239, for a service. As Buzzfeed would say, you won't believe what happened next! Upon removing the caseback, Zig found that the Valjoux 72 movement had been mounted so precariously (“beyond repair… stem is completely misaligned with case”) that he refused to touch it. What had happened?

 

Turned out that the 6239/V72 case I'd ordered from DW (one of several) couldn't actually accommodate a V72! Up to now I'm still not sure if it's supposed to take a 7750, a Mystery Movement, or was just machined badly. So way back in 2011, jmb had expended all that effort to machine and reshape what turned out to be a bad case. And my poor watchsmith in Manila was given the near-impossible task of making the wrong movement fit. Somehow he managed it, but the solution was ugly and dangerously so. I told Zig to hold tight while I sent him three more cases from my increasingly worthless pile of DW parts. One of them worked. The movement was serviced, installed, and returned to me in March 2013.

 

So now I had a 6239 that ran well, but within a stock DW case. All of its character was gone, and I was sad, barely giving it any wrist time. What to do? I was hoping that jmb could repeat what he'd done before, but -without going into details- circumstances prevented lightning from striking twice. Next stop was Akira, whose modding talents have been improving by leaps and bounds in the past few years. I was close to shipping the watch head over to Germany, but what I'd been hearing about trans-Atlantic rep seizures was scaring the crap out of me. I would still love to collaborate with him in the future, but the prospect of losing a Daytona in the mail was not something I wanted to consider.

 

Ultimately, I went local and janeto72 gamely took up the challenge of reshaping/refinishing the Daytona case by hand, and transferring the gen bezel and crystal from the old watch. That was at the start of the year, and it’s been a busy time for the both of us. At long last, I got the watch back two months ago. The result is subtler and far less-weathered than before, but -like with my 7032- JT's work is excellent. Lugs were slimmed and blunted, and holes widened. The caseback also got a straight-brushed finish similar to that seen on many genuine FAPs.

 

So let’s go see the new batch of photos.

 

The bulk of the work can be seen in profile. As on the old case, it was crucial to remove the sharp points and form blunt tips to match earlier Daytonas. The case is still thicker than I’d like, but there’s only so much you can do when starting off with DW’s case.

 

The crown isn’t as inboard as before, but “the tumah” has been kept under control. Shape-wise this case isn’t far off from a 6262.

 

A closer look at the engravings and the refinished caseback. Still this watch’s “Easter Egg”!

 

I do like this watch on OEM Rolex ostrich:

 

But it’s just about perfect on beat-up rivets:

 

And a bonus group shot:

 

The important thing is that I’m wearing it again, and loving it!

Edited August 21, 2014 by LHOOQ

[Daytona_Dreamer 0]

i am speechless