An issue.

[graman 2]

It is unfortunate that it should come to this.

 

The last thing I have wanted to do was start a thread, to discredit a dealer on this forum, however I feel that I am left with no choice, after exhaustive discussions, and no movement.

 

For the purposes of respecting privacy, I will NOT be publishing any private documents or emails that have been exchanged during this activity. I feel that would be in poor taste.

 

I also raise this issue, knowing that I shall incur the wrath of many forum members, and possibly split the forum.

It is not my intention to be this destructive, and I trust the community here can rise above it.

That said, I will exercise my sense of practical and moral justice, over my instinct (and preference) to avoid public conflict.

 

My issue has been with a fellow trusted dealer.

 

Background:

Last year, I purchased an Ingy AMG from this dealer. It had been a grail watch for some time, and I’d saved for nearly a year to buy it, which ended up being a birthday present from my family. I was very happy with the watch, and sang the dealer’s praise in the forum.

 

The watch did not last particularly well, as the movement was not properly attached to the dial via poorly positioned feet, which caused the movement to drop back into the case, and consequently, the hands would become stuck between the dial markers.

 

Rather than return it, the dealer and I agreed that we would sent it to Offshore for him to look at, saving us both issues with postage and customs, and both knowing OS and trusting his work.

 

Offshore indicated that the problem was an inherent design flaw in the construction of the watch, and any other replacement would have the same issue. An enormous amount of dial tape was used, which failed in transit back to me. The only other option was epoxy, which would prevent the watch from being serviced in the future. Obviously, not an option.

 

The dealer paid for the service, and then accepted the watch for return.

 

Again, I thought that this was the mark of a good dealer – Someone who didn’t run like hell when things went wrong.

 

We agreed that I would send some money to top up, and I purchased an IWC aquatimer from the dealer.

 

The watch arrived, and I loved it.

 

The problem starts:

 

A few weeks into wearing it, the watch began to spontaneously stop.

I thought this was just a glitch with the watch, as I’d shake my wrist and it would start again, however I’d lost several minutes.

 

Over the next few days, it became more pronounced, until it stopped working.

 

I emailed the dealer about it, and they said that they would have it fixed if I sent it to them.

I agreed to this, however I find it too risky to chance CN customs, when I’m asked to send EMS (more than $60aud) but declare a $5 gift. It’s just a red flag for me, so Offshore agreed to take the watch to GZ and present to the dealer on my behalf.

 

The additional problems:

When I packed the watch, I also enclosed a letter to the dealer, thanking them for their support, and requesting that they look at two issues that have arisen.

A scratch or channel had begun to appear in the seconds subdial, where the hand had been in light contact with the dial. My request was to straighten the hand, since the case was going to be opened. Additionally, the strap mech would not let disengage and let me change the strap…I asked if they could see a problem.

 

Again, all good….just a longer wait. That’s no problem…I have other watches to wear.

 

OS finally made it to GZ, and left the watch with the dealer. It wasn’t ready when he came back.

I presumed that the dealer had found there was a bit to do on the watch and it was taking longer but I appreciated that they were following up on my requests, in spite of not mentioning it.

 

The watch was returned a couple of weeks later.

 

The return:

I opened the box, glad to see it back.

I was disappointed to see that the seconds hand still appeared to be in contact with the dial.

I was also disappointed to see that the strap was still sticking, and could not be removed, however, at least it was running!

 

I took a bit of time to let the dealer know it had arrived….things got busy at work and home, however I let them know it arrived, and that I would wear it continuously for a couple of months and let them know how it performed.

 

I didn’t have to wait long before it stopped again…..about 10 days.

Again, I shook, adjusted the time and wound the crown back in, and it was off again…no issue for the next couple of days.

 

Over the next 7 days, it stopped 6 times.

 

The symptoms.

The watch has approximately a 4-4.5 hour power reserve if it is worn all day, in an active capacity.

The watch will stop spontaneously and without warning.

The watch will run accurately if hand wound, however we all know that winding an A7750 is not a good thing to do to the movement.

The watch has a channel scratch on the edge of the dial, which has appeared over time, as the second hand is in light contact with the dial.

(The scratch was not apparent at the time of first arrival, however the second hand did appear to be in contact, or near contact)

 

I emailed the dealer.

 

They expressed their disappointment that it had stopped.

 

I asked them about a replacement, as it was clearly defective.

 

The dealer raised that they had already paid for the ingy (defective) to be fixed, and alluded it was unfair to hold them accountable for this watch too.

 

They then offered me a 50% refund, and I keep the watch.

 

I replied that it was not acceptable. (What would a 50% refund and a useless watch serve?)

 

They informed me that they cannot return either watch to the factory as they have been used.

 

The moral dilemma.

 

Now…we come to 2 issues arising from ongoing discussion.

1. The dealer has denied that this is a scratch. (even though this is a secondary issue to the movement being dead)

I disagree, although not a trauma scratch, it is a channel that is the result of a defect that has passed through their QC.

 

 

 

2. The movement is not reliable.

 

The dealer has offered to repair it, however, did this not just happen?

This watch has just come back from GZ….what is my motivation to trust this process again, and risk customs, only to have the bare minimum done on this watch again?

 

My position:

As a dealer myself on this forum, and a member of this community, I have a sense of responsibility to the membership.

If a customer of mine emails me or pm’s me with a problem with a pen, I either fix it, or replace it. That’s it.

If it has not been through a dishwasher or washing machine, or been abused, it will be fixed or replaced.

 

Anyone who has experienced this as a problem and contacted me can attest to that.

 

Now…I am (and have stated privately) sensitive to the dealer’s plight as a dealer. 2 crappy watches are not a pleasant thing to deal with. Especially 2 in a row from the same customer.

 

However, I have asked for nothing more than what I paid for. A good quality, reliable watch in working condition.

This is why I selected this dealer for this purpose in the first place. Their reputation on the forum for delivering good quality product has been huge.

 

Now…I have been told that this is not a scratch, and asked why did I not raise it earlier?

Why?

Firstly - because it should have been picked up in their QC process, although I now question it’s validity.

Secondly, why are we arguing about that as a piffling issue, when the movement is clearly defective?

 

I am now getting to a point where I’m not sure I can trust the next replacement watch (which presently is not an option, according to the dealer).

 

Summary:

If you haven’t bothered reading any of the above, here are the bullet points in a basic chronology.

 

• Ingy is defective

• Ingy is repaired and returned after failure.

• Aquatimer is procured and additional funds sent to cover gap in cost.

• Aquatimer fails

• Aquatimer is sent back to GZ for repair with letter requesting inspection of seconds hand.

• Aquatimer is returned, repaired.

• Seconds hand is not repaired, and channel becomes more prevalent.

• Aquatimer fails.

• Dealer contacted.

• Dealer offers 50% refund and keep the watch

• Graman declines and requests replacement.

• Impasse.

• Graman involves mods and starts thread in frustration after lengthy attempts to resolve.

 

The wash up.

So there we have it.

This has been a very unfortunate experience, and although I feel that I’ve looked at every opportunity to resolve this without going public, I feel as though I have no option.

 

Firstly, this community has a right to know. And if you have had one, or many great experiences with this dealer then I am very happy for you.

If you are close to this dealer, then I am happy that you enjoy a great relationship, and trust that you shall continue to do so.

If you find this dealer the greatest dealer on earth…fantastic…I’m glad it’s working for you.

 

Secondly, I think there is a moral code to operating as a dealer, which relies on integrity.

We might be playing with reps here folks, and not sheep stations…sure. But some of you are killing your credit cards, monthly…some of you are hiding them from your wives.

Some of us, buy one or two per year.

 

As a dealer, you do get tyre kickers, and picky people who want everything perfect 1:1….yep..I see that…drives me mad.

A dealer should not replace (or be under no obligation to replace) something that has been abused, tinkered with or replace accident damaged by the buyer…Who would?

 

A trusted dealer should replace something that is clearly defective.

A trusted dealer should, when a watch is returned, minimize any issues by checking the watch for any other problems.

A trusted dealer should listen to their customer and place themselves in their shoes.

A trusted dealer should deliver value for money.

 

A trusted dealer, should not be a case of Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware).

 

Wouldn’t you say this is true Mary?

 

Thank you for your time, and your interest in this thread

[onionbag 1]

All of your expectations seem to me to be perfectly reasonable.

[SeanusMaximus 0]

All of your expectations seem to me to be perfectly reasonable.

 

Agreed!

[Mazz 62]

Agreed also

[powderfreak 0]

Thank you for letting us know, graman! I understand your position pretty well and I hope that you aren't left alone with this!

 

During the last weeks my experience with some dealers has changed a bit, too: My two latest watches have movement issues (both from different dealers), one is already on it's way back to the far east. I am not yet experienced enough to judge about that, but it is clearly not what you would expect after reading the feedback...

 

then again, a more experienced member here (owns lots of watches) told me that after buying from several dealers, the best option to buy rep watches is to buy them used from other members. That's a bit of a letdown I think! Because what does the "trusted" in trusted dealers stands for - guaranteed delivery and that's it?

[graman 2]

Thanks for the comments gents.... certainly appreciated.

 

Just unfortunate that it comes to this. I wish this could have been settled more cordially.

[Del 4,514]

Sorry to hear about this. From what you've written, I believe that you have been patient and reasonable throughout.

 

I'm surprised that Mary has taken this stance - seems out of character for her.

[Silverspeed 10]

Sligtly surprised the dealer won't replace the faulty Aquatimer, seems the only reasonable thing to do.

[SeanusMaximus 0]

Sligtly surprised the dealer won't replace the faulty Aquatimer, seems the only reasonable thing to do.

 

Reason escapes people sometimes I guess...

[Silverspeed 10]

Sligtly surprised the dealer won't replace the faulty Aquatimer, seems the only reasonable thing to do.

 

Reason escapes people sometimes I guess...

 

Yeah...especially when loosing money is involved, which in a way is very understandable.

I'm guessing it has to do with the earlier returned Ingy....but even so a dealer needs to stand behind the sold item.

 

Reading between the lines I get the impression the relative inexperience of said dealer is partly cause of the impasse

[NFleischer 4,355]

I have to say I'm not so surprised. Along the lines of SS argument.

 

Also; not to bash them (I've bought from both), but Mary and PWC have been almost diefied around here.

 

They are dealers in reps- that tend to have QC issues. They are not immune from problems. Robert has a good idea with

 

his service deal. Maybe more dealers should do that. The other thing is, this whole qc show is nice, but IMO doesn't really do

 

that much-except increase the prices of reps. It sure doesn't mean you won't have trouble.

[greg_r 83]

Folks, just so's you know: Col (in particular) and I have been involved with this for a while and are grateful to graman for posting this thread. It needed to be aired.

 

Nobody gets it right all the time, but there is a certain level of service that we expect. I'm not going to second-guess what is going to happen, but we completely agree that Mary needs to sort this out pronto.

 

FWIW, the dealers on the trusted list are being constantly re-evaluated based on the complaints we receive - and, more importantly, on the response we get to those complaints. Obviously, these things move slowly, but this is the process that led to Lay being removed from the trusted list recently.

[mondeov6 0]

Agreed also

 

I agree as well. A replacement of the faulty Aquatimer sounds like what would have been the appropriate thing to do.

 

However it is reassuring to know we are all in good hands when issues like this apperas. I am sure the admins are doing all they possible can

to sort these kind of problems out.

 

Really hope you will get this sorted soon Graman!

[Comex 0]

You've been very polite and exerted a lot of patience.

Been correct throughout the whole deal.

Replacement is the only right solution.

Given that we only one heared/wrote one side of the story.

Good luck.

Edited September 11, 2011 by Comex

[Creechin 0]

This is a well stated post. To the point, factual and written with respect.

 

I do hope this is resolved.

[gottahaverolex 0]

This is a shame. It really seems that some of our most go to dealers are slipping by the wayside. I've had a few issues that Mary has handled immediately and without any further issues but I've also had several problems with a watch from a different dealer and he chose not to reply to any of my emails asking for a replacement. I've since stopped ordering from him because I will not tolerate being ignored when I spend $1000 dollars with a dealer and they aren't willing to stand by their products.

[sconehead 5]

Graman, ever the gentleman, you've shown great patience on the matter...I hope it get's resolved to your satisfaction mate...

[Nisv 0]

Hope everything turns out for the best for you Graman.

[pollux1 3]

I wholeheartedly agree Gman, hairy mary still hasn't replaced the bracelet she was meant to for me, she may have forgotten but i haven't.

[markeym3 2]

Its a shame when this type of thing happens and nobody wants to "dis" a dealer , i would imagine being a dealer has its moments with a thousand crazy questions to answer daily and unreasonable QC probs but if there is a prob then just a straight swop is the answer , and of course reasonable patience on both sides , also the element of trust plays a big part , we are happy to turn over $$$$ each week / month to someone who is on the other side of the world who we dont know , and trust the watches arrive shiney and new and working , and it works , I think these issues where there is a problem should be addressed quickly and reasonably ..

 

Its a shame this has gone this way and it would also be a shame if it went the way of the "Lay"

 

cheers

 

sorry for waffling

[sarmi 0]

Really sorry for the bad experience Graman. I think you were very patient and that your requests is nothing more than reasonable - you want what you payed for. You can not be held responsible if the dealer failed to recognize bad movement, scratch / if the dealer orders from bad factory.

I also support you in

- doing bare minimum repair when shipped back (should result in not-trusted instead of trusted dealer)

- QC not only a show but a real deal (such defects should be exception rather than a rule).

Sometimes it seems to me that trusted dealers take trusted for granted...they earned it and they should keep such level of service...

[Pob 73]

Sorry to here this graman

I heard only good things about Mary but guess we all have are bad moments and this must be one of those moments for Mary!

Hope everything will end up good at the end for both, you and Mary!

We already lost one dealer not long a go we don't want to lose one more!

Maybe our server is train to tell us something by shuting down lately and maybe the new one will make it all go away!

[graman 2]

Thank you to all for your comments on this.

As comex has pointed out, this is one side of the story, and everyone - particularly those mentioned in the thread have a right to procedural fairness in a response.

 

I expect this response may take some time, however it is valid, and more than worthy of being heard and giving the forum a balanced arguement.

 

Thanks again

[MikeMcNair 0]

Being a TD on here is a LOT harder than one would think, and Gman I know you know this. The CONSTANT emails, PMs and Texts, they just don't stop.

 

We have over 13,000 people we are trying to make happy and frankly, it needs to looked at this way:

 

You can keep all people happy some of the time, and SOME of the people happy all of the time.

 

In this case, YOU are the CUSTOMER! Take away your TD status, and become a member of the general population. That being said, I have never had a problem Mary didnt fix. She has always been good on her word.

 

Now, if 50% refund is her best, perhaps she needs to dig deeper into her magic purse of watch funds, cause frankly, I KNOW what these watches sell for to the dealers, and believe me you, there is a gigantic ammt of profit per piece.

 

(backstory)..... I was to flu over to china and buy 1500-2000 watches for a dealer in the states, and that would have made me as much profit as I made selling my most expensive house I have owned. Yes, the profit margin is THAT much.

 

In situations where I feel I could have done better I will either not charge, or only charge for parts, or in some way make things right ....

 

E.G. : omar had a watch sent back after I repaired it, and during shipping the bracelet came undone, and the springbar scratched the lugs. What did I do? I took the watch back, repaired all scratches on the ENTIRE watch to ensure his experience would be a happy one, and although I know the problem was not my fault, I wanted the positive result to be associated with my name. This was documented until the crash last week and his feedback in my forum sadly is gone, but still, point is, that's what I had to do to please the CUSTOMER.

 

So, GMAN is the customer here, and frankly, good biz practice is that the customer is always right, period. There are a few exceptions to this (like the mean customer who is never happy with anything, and there is just no pleasing them) but otherwise, you should be:

 

A) made whole financially

 

get what you originally ordered.

 

Those are the only two outcomes that will be acceptable, and I am confident one of them will ultimately be the one.

 

Best of luck, and thank you for sharing your experience, because feedback (be it good or bad) is what makes us grow as a family here, and as TD's here.

 

How WE respond to problems is what defines us as TDs.

 

Cheers,

 

Michael

[myaz 3]

I appreciate the TD's position for inasmush as selling watches can be fulfilling and fun while taking care of problems takes a disproportionate amount of time and creates personal aggravation.

 

However, I am in a service industry as well and problems pop up. Taking care of some people's concerns or unmet expectations is easy to postpone or ignore because it's stressful and unpleasant. It's the old 80/20 rule: spend 80% of your energy on 20% of the customers. But you gotta do it because it's what you do.

In my situation, I have even occasionally lost money on some people, and that doesn't feel good and a few clearly expect something for nothing, and you get rid of these, but that's not what I read here.

 

I chose Mary because of her stellar record and among others, her outstanding response to the SMOOLA debacle and perhaps it has created a high number of people now getting pickier but not in this case.

 

Due to the nature of this unregulated business, Mary has to deal with a higher number of defective items and it's her reputation that I count on for if a problem comes up. I wouldn't mind paying a little more if she has to start doing that to continue her outstanding service. It's the service, man.

I trust Mary will rise to the challenge.