RolexAddict 1 Posted August 6, 2009 This is the introduction of a big project. This project will take time but nobody did that before : a complete tutorial from A to Z about the ETA movements used in our rep. I took these pictures last month, you can see I have enough movements and parts to experiment and play Ecomomy is low... I don't spend money to buy storage boxes. I use colored movement boxes and saved plastic bottle caps to store parts by group more parts... I have read so many posts on many forums about members who had problems and no issue or no one could give a consistant answer. For exemple, I had, and lot of members had also this problem, the 4th hand on the Rolex GMT stops to move. Also the days don't change at 12pm. The date wheel is stuck and the days change only via the crown.Misaligned date in the window. Loosing/gaining to much time. No enough power reserve. Noisy rotor. The little notch to release the stem has been pressed to deep... no way to put it in again... what to do ?... Etc. Etc... This will be for all members, but especially for those like me who mod and would like to go deaper than only change a dial or hands. If the Asian 7750 is really tricky, the ETA movements are easy to play with and all parts are available. And working on watch movements is like everything : If you don't practice regulary, you loose skills and precision. I loose and broke parts, I made lot of mistake of course, but its like learning bicycle, you fall, You have the skinned knees, and at one moment its "eureka!" you got it. Same with watch movements. IT NEED PRACTICE. Now I feel very confortable and I control 100% the 2836 type. I say 2836 type as we get lot of different ref. like 2834,... inside our reps, but they use all almost the same parts. I spent time since this winter desassembling/reassembling eta movements. I didn't communicate on the board about this as I wanted to be sure to be able to give a answer in all major case of troubles. I am ready. I will do the best to be very clear and slow in my explanations, sharp pics and more. To be comprehensive, I have divided the tutorial in 2 main chapters : THE DIAL SIDE and the BACK SIDE, then precise themas for all complications and the background movement. A - THE DIAL FACE - Desassemblig/cure problems/oiling and re-assemblig Tuto 1 : Overwiew of the gears involved in date/gmt/time settings - hours/minutes/minute cock disposal - Tuto 2 : The fourth GMT hand complication Tuto 3 : The date complication Tuto 4 : The settings (keyless work) B - THE CASE BACK FACE - Desassembling/cure problems/oiling and re-assemblig Tuto 5 : The automatic device Tuto 6 : The balance bridge Tuto 7 : The train wheel and pallet bridge Tuto 8 : The barrel bridge Tuto 9 : Balance regulation This will take time, I project to start end of this month and expect to complete the 9 tutos for october. Hope you will enjoy it and learn. If you have any suggestions for the list of tutos tell me Here, dial face : 3 movements, 3 different steps : Top left, the dial face stripped. Top right, date complication and settings (keyless work) in place. Botom, the dial face is completed with the hours, minutes and GMT hand, the minute cock in place, and the date wheel. the barrel bridge and parts. The barrel is open for oiling. ETA says its not necessary to open the barrel as the spring is self lubricated. But some movements we get are old storage parts and often rusty or glued with dry grease... I desassemble and let all soak in bezine (I use aviation JetA1, better than regular gas to disolve old grease) ADVERTISING... AND NOW, LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, READ THIS AND GIVE YOUR OPINION FAUX ETA IN OUR REPS... Info or Intox ??? One thing is sure, this is a new kind of business on replica boards : when some members have a Sub for sale, they can increase the value by claiming "genuine Swiss ETA inside..." <_< How can you prouve this or that is a genuine or a rep ETA movement ? Because of a little stamp ? or a number stamped on the plate ? or because the wheels on the automatic bloc has more or less holes ? Ah! now the new trend is "the little spring kipping in place the jewel on the spiral axis has not the same design" You can read lot of things about the old style Incabloc and the new design of the Novodiac, both are used on ETA movements and both are Swiss. I think so. images from OFrei online ETA parts catalog : My feeling after my investigations comparing parts of several movements : all ETA in our rep looks like genuine Swiss machined parts from ETA factory and sent in Asia. I could be vrong, but all arguments I read on rep board are not really convenient for me. This is a Swiss document about the ETA resolutions and the famous phasing out witch has been finaly canceled. Sorry it is in french and I don't have the time to translate. http://www.news-service.admin.ch/NSBSubscr...stoff-ETA-F.pdf A short overview: ETA send material worlwide -mainly in Asia- to 3 kind of customers: 1) Assembly factories, they get EBAUCHES or CHABLONS only, this is the french tech. names for PARTS. 2) Modifying factories, the same here they get parts only 3) Brands, like Mont Blanc etc. using ETA movements, they get finished movements ready for the EMBOITAGE witch means putting the movement in the case. The assembly factories assemble the movements for a regular use in a simple watch The modifying factories make mods to add complications to adapt the movement for a specific kind of watch,4th GMT hand for exemple, also modd the date wheel to get the correct dial window position for a specific watch etc. Here we are concerned. These modifying plants sell to rep factories who produce rep watches. The ETA phasing out project : This was to decrease the worldwide (mainly towards Asia) delivery of parts from 2003 to 2006. This was cancelled, and reported to 2011. The document says finally that the Swatch group is thinking to reconsider all of this and probably Chinese will continue to be feeded with ETA movements. Check here, a new actor will probably come now in the movie http://www.sellita.ch/index.php?option=com...=22&lang=en This factory produce EXACTLY the same movements like the 2836 type and send ebauches (parts) worldwide Also have a look at what I call the ROLETA 3135-2836 Made up Swiss ETA ? pure Chinese or Russian ? http://www.prowatch-polo.com/showpic.asp?ArticleID=802 When you disassemble completely a 2836-2 movement, you will notice that parts are mixed, you will find 2836-1 parts, also 2834-2 parts and many others. Even some parts like the stop second lever (hack) are coming from Orion, Benrus and many other mechanical movements. If ETA stops export, We could probably have SELLITA, or a similar Chinese movement but not stamped ETA. Look this, 2 design of cover and gear found on the automatic module on our ETA movements. One has a cut around the space where is positionned the ratchet wheel screw. The other one is plain. Differents gears, with holes, without holes. No Chinese, pure Swiss parts -I gess- If you compare several ETA movements you will notice they have different stamps and ref numbers on the main plate, different parts, some parts are like new, some other looks dry, dirthy and with moisture and rust. Because in modifying factories they have a lot of batches with old stock and new mixed parts. From one 2836-2 to another you will find a mix of matching parts like the 2821-2, 2824-A2, 2834-2, 2840, 2842, 2846 and many others. A curiosity : the pic is not very sharp but explicative. This 2834 is stamped 2834-1 with the number 2 over stamped... Mainly we get the regular low class ETA with "gold platted" plate, bridges and covers. This is not gold, its TiN, a Titanium Nitride coat who looks like gold and this coat is applied to harden the surface of the parts.These parts (main plate, bridges and automatic module cover) are machined from forged alloy. Movements plates made in China are MIM (Molded Injected Metal), its very easy to see the differences. But we have the ETA 7750 clone, why ? Because the Swiss ETA 7750 is expensive. But chinese don't stamp "ETA" or "Valjoux" on the movement plate. So why they produce a 2836 clone and they stamp "ETA" on ? What is the reason ? To swindle us? Another curiosity : I bought a used 2836-2 from a RWI member. This is a dash 1 type, some people, looking on the parts would say "It's a chinese copy !! Look the difference of parts !!" No, it's a genuine very old 2836-2, probably 20 years old... the background plate: And here, look the difference between the old (left) and the new (right) type of parts on the 2836 : the old parts left have the old style of non-sweeping seconds wheel. The escape wheel and the pallet (anchor) also the balance wheel are bigger. The jewelled pallet bridge design is complete different. And another pic from the balance bridge : on the old model there is no regulator to ajust the hair spring ! If you compare a genuine Valjoux 7750 and a Asian 7750, you will notice machining and finishing differences. Asian parts are not forged or CNC cut, its MIM or also press cut metal with a lack of tolerences I have compared more than 20 ETA movements like 2834-1, 2824-A2, 2834-2, 2836-2, never seen any difference between machining or finish on the parts. All looks CNC machined, I doubt Chinese will invest in such equipment to reproduce a basic universal movement easy to get worldwide like the basic ETA line. The Valjoux 7750 has a clone, the Asian 7750. But I am not convicted that the ETA 2836-2 has a clone. My be a Chinese movement exists with the same design, but not with ETA stamped. Conclusion: I believe, all ETA movements in our reps are genuine Swiss parts assembled in China, or genuine complete Swiss movements. The 2836-2 we get is a modified movement with a mixt of other movements components witch are compatible like those from the 2821-2, 2824-A2, 2834-2, 2840, 2842, 2846 and many others. A similar ETA design movement could exist, but with a Chinese name RA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
greg_r 78 Posted August 6, 2009 Fascinating stuff, RA... I'm going to have to re-read this and think about it for a while... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
johnny woozer 0 Posted August 6, 2009 You took a lot of effort to write this down for us. Excellent story and very nice explaining pictures. A sticky might be considered! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AllergyDoc 40 Posted August 6, 2009 (edited) Bravo! So, what is really the difference between the "ETA" and "ETA-clone"? Nothing? One is $100 more than the other. Have you looked at one of these new "ETA-clones"? Also, this was an excellent point: But we have the ETA 7750 clone, why ? Because the Swiss ETA 7750 is expensive. But chinese don't stamp "ETA" or "Valjoux" on the movement plate. So why they produce a 2836 clone and they stamp "ETA" on ? What is the reason ? To swindle us? Edited August 6, 2009 by AllergyDoc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alphakazi 0 Posted August 6, 2009 good stuff RA - the idea that there are no cloned 2824, etc. would explain a whole lot and makes perfect sense. Why clone something that is inexpensive and massively abundant. Looking forward to the rest... funny to think of all the threads explaining differences in gear holes, incabloc springs, etc. when in reality, they're all gen Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RolexAddict 1 Posted August 6, 2009 (edited) Thanks guys for your comments, good stuff RA - the idea that there are no cloned 2824, etc. would explain a whole lot and makes perfect sense. Why clone something that is inexpensive and massively abundant. Looking forward to the rest... :( funny to think of all the threads explaining differences in gear holes, incabloc springs, etc. when in reality, they're all gen Alpha, This is exactly what I try to explain, some guys have more infos than me about the reality of the ETA Chinese clones, but... Speaking about a Chinese movements looking like a ETA with ETA and "Patended" stamps : I have doubts, at my level, with my experience, I say no. All we have in our reps are Swiss ETA, a mix of rebuilt with old and new parts, Edited August 6, 2009 by RolexAddict Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
houndoggie 58 Posted August 6, 2009 Thanks guys for your comments, good stuff RA - the idea that there are no cloned 2824, etc. would explain a whole lot and makes perfect sense. Why clone something that is inexpensive and massively abundant. Looking forward to the rest... :( funny to think of all the threads explaining differences in gear holes, incabloc springs, etc. when in reality, they're all gen Alpha, This is exactly what I try to explain, some guys have more infos than me about the reality of the ETA Chinese clones, but... Speaking about a Chinese movements looking like a ETA with ETA and "Patended" stamps : I have doubts, at my level, with my experience, I say no. All we have in our reps are Swiss ETA, a mix of rebuilt with old and new parts, What is the source of the funky Novodiac? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alphakazi 0 Posted August 6, 2009 Thanks guys for your comments, good stuff RA - the idea that there are no cloned 2824, etc. would explain a whole lot and makes perfect sense. Why clone something that is inexpensive and massively abundant. Looking forward to the rest... :( funny to think of all the threads explaining differences in gear holes, incabloc springs, etc. when in reality, they're all gen Alpha, This is exactly what I try to explain, some guys have more infos than me about the reality of the ETA Chinese clones, but... Speaking about a Chinese movements looking like a ETA with ETA and "Patended" stamps : I have doubts, at my level, with my experience, I say no. All we have in our reps are Swiss ETA, a mix of rebuilt with old and new parts, and it's no wonder dealers can swear it's a Swiss movement (even if they drop-ship). Here's a pic of my planet ocean 2824-2 with mildew on the rotor - all genuine stuff Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RolexAddict 1 Posted August 6, 2009 (edited) Thanks guys for your comments, QUOTE (alphakazi @ Aug 6 2009, 05:28 PM) good stuff RA - the idea that there are no cloned 2824, etc. would explain a whole lot and makes perfect sense. Why clone something that is inexpensive and massively abundant. Looking forward to the rest... funny to think of all the threads explaining differences in gear holes, incabloc springs, etc. when in reality, they're all gen Alpha, This is exactly what I try to explain, some guys have more infos than me about the reality of the ETA Chinese clones, but... Speaking about a Chinese movements looking like a ETA with ETA and "Patended" stamps : I have doubts, at my level, with my experience, I say no. All we have in our reps are Swiss ETA, a mix of rebuilt with old and new parts, What is the source of the funky Novodiac? A Kif spring ? I don't know, I din't read John's threat before I wrote, but again, this "Chinese ETA clone" saga is ridiculous imho, May be Otto Frei sells American ETA clones, who knows, Edited August 6, 2009 by RolexAddict Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
prestigewatchco 2 Posted August 6, 2009 I have said it forever these people who can call Asain from a picture are full of shit! Even expreienced watchmakers can't say 100% if it's Swiss or Chinese with the item in front of them. My Guy in Bangkok had 15 years with ETA in Bangkok as a manager in R+D he took 6 hours the other day and used every maens known to man and still couldn't ne 100% sure it wasn't ETA Give him a 7750/6497 and he will tell in a minute but 2834/2836 impossible to say Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pollux1 3 Posted August 6, 2009 Absolutely fascinating post, please sticky this. One question, does the so called Asia clone Eta 2836 beat the same, and indeed does it "feel" the same when winding etc? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alphakazi 0 Posted August 6, 2009 Absolutely fascinating post, please sticky this. One question, does the so called Asia clone Eta 2836 beat the same, and indeed does it "feel" the same when winding etc? RA's idea is that there are no clones of the inexpensive ETA movements and this makes perfect sense - all the 2824, 2836, etc. are all made of gen parts *stickied* Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
onzenuub 294 Posted August 6, 2009 Great posting, thanks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
houndoggie 58 Posted August 6, 2009 I am by far not an expert on watch movements, but the shock system in the "clone" movements is distinct to the Novodiac or older incabloc versions.. I haven't seen any pictures of that type of jewel spring and retainer on anything except what we call "clone" movements. Out of curiosity, what is the most expensive part in a movement? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RolexAddict 1 Posted August 6, 2009 for the ETA 2836 line, the most expensive is the complete balance bridge, like here from Ofrei : Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
houndoggie 58 Posted August 6, 2009 So maybe it makes sense to "clone" the balance assembly to put into the movements made from cobbled ETA parts. Is the balance assembly probably the most crucial part for a movement? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RolexAddict 1 Posted August 6, 2009 Its the heart of a movement, bought separately, looks expensive. OFrei parts bought one by one are just for tourists like me, but imagine you are a Chinese assembly company, and you buy 10000 direct from the Swatch group... it will cost may be 5 bucks the unit ... Or from middle people who take royalties, may be 7 bucks/unit Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
houndoggie 58 Posted August 6, 2009 Its the heart of a movement, bought separately, looks expensive. OFrei parts bought one by one are just for tourists like me, but imagine you are a Chinese assembly company, and you buy 10000 direct from the Swatch group... it will cost may be 5 bucks the unit ... Or from middle people who take royalties, may be 7 bucks/unit makes sense. I just can't get past these stupid thing: From a supposed "swiss" 2836 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Massimo 53 Posted August 6, 2009 Great post, RA. Thanks for the hard work in putting it together. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
houndoggie 58 Posted August 6, 2009 Yeah RA, I forgot to thank you for the nice effort, plus I can't wait for the tutorials... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KBH 7 Posted August 6, 2009 What about the Sellita SW200? Wouldn't that be considered a clone of the Eta 2824-2? Only difference is they've added one jewel and didn't try to sell it as an Eta. They used to make Eta movements for years. Now they make their own. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
houndoggie 58 Posted August 6, 2009 What about the Sellita SW200? Wouldn't that be considered a clone of the Eta 2824-2? Only difference is they've added one jewel and didn't try to sell it as an Eta. They used to make Eta movements for years. Now they make their own. It is. any good pics of the SW200? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
alphakazi 0 Posted August 6, 2009 What about the Sellita SW200? Wouldn't that be considered a clone of the Eta 2824-2? Only difference is they've added one jewel and didn't try to sell it as an Eta. They used to make Eta movements for years. Now they make their own. no it's an homage Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeyB 0 Posted August 6, 2009 RA, OUTSTANDING job! Well Done!! Just to make certain I understand correctly, a specific comparison: From Perfect Clones; RLGS01002 SS Anni GMT SS Black Swiss Eta 2836 GMT Hand Ind Ad ~and~ RLGS01003 SS Anni GMT SS Black Asia Eta 2836 GMT Hand Ind Adj are both genuine ETA 2836 movements, either assembled from genuine parts or a genuine whole assembly? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sconehead 5 Posted August 6, 2009 I think Robert would be able to shed some light on RA's assumptions... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites