A Short guide to rep movements

[Massimo 53]

Hopefully some useful info for noobs. Old timers please point out any errors though as I still think of myself as a noob too and this info is what I've read elsewhere, and could probably find and pinch from another forum if I did the right search.

 

Broadly rep movements fall into categories, Swiss and Asian, although the lines are blurring: read on.

 

The more expensive reps are generally acknowledged to have genuine Swiss movements made by ETA, the company which provides the base movements for many gens. Buy a rep with one of these in it and you will pay more, but if you can find a watchmaker who doesn't mind working on reps you should be able to get if serviced or fixed if it breaks. Quality control should be better so you should expect longer life, in fact there's no reason it shouldn't run for many years.

 

The most commonly used are the ETA 2824, which has a date, and the ETA 2836-2, which has day + date. The 2836 is also modified to act as date + 24 hour "GMT" hand, without compromising reliability.

 

One potential snag though, apart from price: recently on other boards there has been a lot of discussion about whether the Chinese movement factories are copying these as well as the watches they sit in! The jury is still out on this though.

 

The cheaper reps use the cheaper Asian movements, but don't be put off as most are very good, especially the "7750" movement which has a working chronograph (stopwatch) + date. When these first appeared they had a reputation for crapping out, but the "new Asian 7750" is fine. This is just as well because genuine "Valjoux" (made by ETA) 7750s are very hard to come by and cost plenty if you can find one. I've got two Asian 7750s and have had no problems at all, including running and resetting the chronos.

 

For cheaper reps many are described as using an "Asian 21J" movement. The 21J means 21 jewels, those being a good thing in a movement, reducing friction and wear. Here ends my knowledge, and others may add something here, but these are also generally reliable. If it does crap out on you, chances are you won't be able to get it repaired, but then you'll have paid less for it in the first place. Also, with the right skills and knowledge, there's still a chance it could be replaced with a complete new movement, as many Chinese movements are now available from watch parts suppliers, such as Cousins UK (http://www.cousinsuk.com/)

[AllergyDoc 40]

Very nice.

 

Many "honest" rep dealers are admitting that it's become very difficult, if not impossible, to determine if a "Swiss" ETA is indeed a genuine ETA. Some have gone so far as to stop ordering and selling watches with "Swiss ETA" movements as they cannot guarantee the movements as being genuine.

[RolexAddict 1]

Hopefully some useful info for noobs. Old timers please point out any errors though as I still think of myself as a noob too and this info is what I've read elsewhere, and could probably find and pinch from another forum if I did the right search.

 

Broadly rep movements fall into categories, Swiss and Asian, although the lines are blurring: read on.

 

The more expensive reps are generally acknowledged to have genuine Swiss movements made by ETA, the company which provides the base movements for many gens. Buy a rep with one of these in it and you will pay more, but if you can find a watchmaker who doesn't mind working on reps you should be able to get if serviced or fixed if it breaks. Quality control should be better so you should expect longer life, in fact there's no reason it shouldn't run for many years.

 

The most commonly used are the ETA 2824, which has a date, and the ETA 2836-2, which has day + date. The 2836 is also modified to act as date + 24 hour "GMT" hand, without compromising reliability.

 

One potential snag though, apart from price: recently on other boards there has been a lot of discussion about whether the Chinese movement factories are copying these as well as the watches they sit in! The jury is still out on this though.

 

The cheaper reps use the cheaper Asian movements, but don't be put off as most are very good, especially the "7750" movement which has a working chronograph (stopwatch) + date. When these first appeared they had a reputation for crapping out, but the "new Asian 7750" is fine. This is just as well because genuine "Valjoux" (made by ETA) 7750s are very hard to come by and cost plenty if you can find one. I've got two Asian 7750s and have had no problems at all, including running and resetting the chronos.

 

For cheaper reps many are described as using an "Asian 21J" movement. The 21J means 21 jewels, those being a good thing in a movement, reducing friction and wear. Here ends my knowledge, and others may add something here, but these are also generally reliable. If it does crap out on you, chances are you won't be able to get it repaired, but then you'll have paid less for it in the first place. Also, with the right skills and knowledge, there's still a chance it could be replaced with a complete new movement, as many Chinese movements are now available from watch parts suppliers, such as Cousins UK (http://www.cousinsuk.com/)

 

This is interesting Massimo,

We could discuss hours,

For the Asian 7750, no problem, we know its a 100% Chinese product. The last version (28.800bp/h) is better, but difficult to service, almost impossible if you break or lose a part or a hair spring.

 

Concerning ETA movements, personally, I don't know what to think about this rumor gen/clone... as all of these movement components are basically produced in China.

 

Even manufacturers like Jeager Lecoultre or other "Swiss" companies assemble parts in Switzerland to build "Swiss manufactured" movements, but pinions, gears, screws etc. they use, are made in China...

 

Don't believe that ETA or other brands produces parts in Switzeland, to expensive. If you believe this, its like if you think you Dell computer is made in USA...

Or the beef meat in your MacDonald burger is American...

[AllergyDoc 40]

Or the beef meat in your MacDonald burger is American...

It's not?

 

 

At issue is the premium charged for "Swiss" ETA movements, at least $100.

 

Certainly you don't think the movements that come in reps are the same as found in gen watches?

[rc42 0]

For most rep collectors there is a regular rotation of watches with the bulk of the collection sitting in a watchbox awaiting its next 'wrist time', for these occasional use watches the Asian movements are ideal, they are cheaper than the ETA (or ETA clone) and have the same 28,800 bph beat rate so the second hand sweeps at 8 steps per second just like the ETA. With a saving of around $100 per watch that can add up to quite a lot.

 

Having said that, almost every watch I have bought has had the 'Swiss' ETA advertised, the one clone 2836-2 movement that I had felt rough and noisy with the date switchover taking hours rather than being instant. Fortunately the dealer took the watch back and put the right movement into it and its been running well since then.

 

Every rep I have bought has become my favorite for at least several days and then gone back to the box, my future purchases will be Asian movements only and if I do come across a 'must have' daily beater then I'll get a Swiss movement one too and sell on the Asian one.

 

 

Interestingly, some dealers now offer 'Asian ETA clone' as a movement choice and price it between the cheap 21j Asian movement and the Swiss ETA movement. Unfortunately, they don't take the back off every watch that they sell to see if the makers are scamming them.

[RolexAddict 1]

Or the beef meat in your MacDonald burger is American...

It's not?

 

NO........ no??

 

 

 

At issue is the premium charged for "Swiss" ETA movements, at least $100.

 

Certainly you don't think the movements that come in reps are the same as found in gen watches?

 

Exacly the same. But mostly other as the 2836-2 is a old concept now.

The "gold" version ot the 2836 in reps is the cheaper version. In watches like Mont-Blanc, eta movements have a different finish like "Cotes de Genève" or others metal surface finishes, but its exactly the same movements.

Look here, http://www.eta.ch/ there is a English version.

 

Remember, 90% of "Swiss" watches are produced in China under licence. Generic mecanical/automatic cheap watches produced in China uses Myota Japanese movements, or, for first quality brands, like Festina, Emporio Armani, Louis Pion, Guess...etc makers uses ETA. So there are tons of ETA movements in China. I don't really understand this problem of gen/clone ETA 2836-2. Some reps uses a Asian 21j witch is gold platted and looks like an ETA. He has 28.800bp/h but its NOT a ETA clone, this is vrong.

 

The cheapest and basic models are those gold platted we have in reps. The 2836-2 is basically a day-date movement modified with a modified plate under the dial made to accept an extra gear driving a 4th hand instead of the day disk.

Edited December 3, 2008 by RolexAddict

[SliceMaster 281]

Now this is how a repwatch forum thread should look like

 

Very informative and just what repfreaks (like us) want to have

 

Keep up the good work guys

[NFleischer 4,355]

i have also heard from a very reliable source that the factories can not

get the gen swiss etas anymore. at best they are hybrids using some of the parts

or just plain clones. i am suspicious even when dealers swear to use the real thing.

the good news is that the A7750 works fine, and even the cheaper 21J seem to be ok.

in fact the majority of problems i've had are with supposed etas, that's why i don't believe it.

a year or 2 ago it was a different story, most of the watches did have swiss if advertised that way.

[Luthier 1]

i have also heard from a very reliable source that the factories can not

get the gen swiss etas anymore. at best they are hybrids using some of the parts

or just plain clones.

Chinese factories produce thousands of watches per day, you really think they put a team of skilled workers to assemble movements using "some parts" of swiss ETA's? I visited few dealer's offices in Guangzhou, and I saw boxes with real ETA's and boxes with ETA clones. They even sell movements on watch market. Clones, ofcourse. I personally chose swiss ETA for my Rolex DayDate from the box with real ETA's.

 

[Massimo 53]

Having said that, almost every watch I have bought has had the 'Swiss' ETA advertised, the one clone 2836-2 movement that I had felt rough and noisy with the date switchover taking hours rather than being instant. Fortunately the dealer took the watch back and put the right movement into it and its been running well since then.

 

Every rep I have bought has become my favorite for at least several days and then gone back to the box, my future purchases will be Asian movements only and if I do come across a 'must have' daily beater then I'll get a Swiss movement one too and sell on the Asian one.

 

I also tend to go for the ETAs, and they have all been beautifully smooth running. It's a good point that some of the Asian ones are a bit rough. The only bad experience I had was with one of Andrew's older beginner-Subs, which had an "Asian 2813." It was horrible, with a noisy rotor, gritty to wind and adjust, and then it crapped out on me after only a few days. However, Andrew's current beginner Sub is has the generic Asian 21J, which I believe is different - and I don't have one of those to comment on anyway, plus I could have just been unlucky with mine.

 

Thanks all for the additional info and comments, very interesting and informative - I love this subject.

[greg_r 81]

Now this is how a repwatch forum thread should look like

 

Very informative and just what repfreaks (like us) want to have

 

Keep up the good work guys

 

+1

[rc42 0]

Below is the ETA clone that I got in my LV sub from Andrew, note the lack of ETA stamping on the baseplate, otherwise it looks the same.

It felt like it was full of gravel when manual winding and the rotor was very noisy when auto winding, finally, the date changeover started around midnight but didn't complete till about 09:30.

It should have been a Swiss ETA (as advertised) but to be fair to Andrew he asked me to send it back for a movement swap when I sent him the picture and since its been back its been super smooth and worked perfectly.

 

[AllergyDoc 40]

even the cheaper 21J seem to be ok.

My only complaint with the 21J Rolexes is, the date font is wrong. I greatly prefer the "ETA" date fonts and dislike the ones that come with the 21J models. At least the ones I have purchased.

 

Assuming everything else is the same; i.e., "Swiss" cases, sapphire crystal, 306L steel, etc., which is never a safe assumption.

[Massimo 53]

For comparison then, here's the movement from my "Super" Sea Dweller, complete with ETA stamp. Although, if the cloners can clone the movement as closely as they appear to have done in rc42's photo, I suspect they could manage an ETA stamp. Anyway, 2 months in, still going strong and smooth, with no grit - and snap date change. I love my SSD, it's a thing of beauty, up to and including this movement.

 

[JohnG 41]

It is also important to note that not all terminology is uniform among dealers.

 

Josh and Andrew use the term "Asian ETA" to denote the DG2813 which is a 21J of Asian design and manufacture. It has nothing to do with the ETA. The "ETA Clone" is the Chinese movement which is a copy of the ETA.

 

There are a lot of little names these guys play with nomenclature.

[Luthier 1]

I'd like to ask - how to remove stem from movement? Picture with red arrow, pointing on the right spot will be very, very appreciated.

For ETA movt's, 21j and A7750, please.

Thanks in advance!!!

[JohnG 41]

That's the kind of thing you could find easily on RWG.cc - but if you find it, please repost it here. Or maybe RolexAddict will come along - he knows how. I know you have to release the stem by inserting something in the "keyless" works - a little hole near where the stem enters the movement but I don't know if you just depress something in there... and I know if you don't put the stem back correctly you can have problems setting the time - at least on some movements it can be tricky...

[Luthier 1]

That's the kind of thing you could find easily on RWG.cc - but if you find it, please repost it here. Or maybe RolexAddict will come along - he knows how. I know you have to release the stem by inserting something in the "keyless" works - a little hole near where the stem enters the movement but I don't know if you just depress something in there... and I know if you don't put the stem back correctly you can have problems setting the time - at least on some movements it can be tricky...

 

I killed a few movt's this way. Pulled stem out (but don't remember, to what hole I inserted the needle), and no way I get it back.