Is this a Keyless, stem or crown wheel fault on ETA 2836-2

[paulc 0]

Right folks I have a ETA 2836-2 that slips on winding with a horrible click and then no resistance, even when winding slowly it slips, I have let the watch run right out of reserve before winding again but to no avail it still slips and clicks on winding, I have also noticed that when unscrewing the crown it also clicks twice before moving into the wind position. now I have read until my eyes bleed about the keyless mechanism and I also understand that the crown wheel is floating and will move to swap from manual wind to auto rotor wind but a bit of info from someone in the know may point me in the right direction.

 

I have seen some sterling tutorials about de and re-assembling the keyless mechanism and despite initially being alarmed at the crown wheels movement upon winding I think that the fault may lie in the clutch return or winding pinion but again I cannot be sure and am after advice.

 

here is a short video of the problem

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MqH2-SzrHY&feature=share&list=UUz_kAZMO3dpeL_LwFkOj7mA

 

I have been in touch with three watchsmiths in my area and after reading over on RWI about the best way to find and introduce yourself to a watchsmith I find that the second that they find that it is a replica they dont want to know and they want to know even less when you tell them that it may be a clone or refurbished ETA movement.

So on the back of this I have been and bought this ...probably a mistake but hey we all start somewhere.

 

 

I have considered just NEVER manually winding the watch and just setting the date etc and wearing it but curiosity is getting the better of me.

 

My biggest concern is removing and replacing the stem after reading the horror stories about everyones preferred method of removal with this type of stem. Anyway If I do attempt a repair I also intend to waterproof the watch, so at this moment I am teetering on a diy repair in the hope that it may be just the keyless assemblies clutch return slipped or something similar and not that it needs components.

Just to add that I have seen images of some really worn crown wheel pinion mounts and I am just hoping that it isnt that despite the fact that the watch is relatively new I also know that some of these ETA's are just old refurbs (according to one watchsmith that I spoke to).

 

again if anyone who is familiar with this movement could kindly watch the video and pass on any thoughts I would be grateful.

 

The date wheel works perfect and the movement also hacks, I am continuing to look for further info and loads of people seem to refer to a click spring being bent causing thier winding woes but none seems to refer to the click and loss of traction that mine has.

 

any helpful info will be greatly appreciated.

[Hazz 0]

keyless issue !!!!!!

[paulc 0]

keyless issue !!!!!!

 

Thankyou, I was hoping to hear that, do you think clutch return perhaps?

[SSTEEL 0]

Don't forget the RWG Shop sells top of the line watch tools

[J.Eric 693]

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I am having issues with a 2836-2 as well.

 

From your video there may be a loose screw, some dirt or even a hair that keeps the gear from

 

engaging the mainspring. To check, remove the rotor and the auto winding bridge. with all those

 

parts removed, you can see how it all works and see if something is jammed up.

 

Hope this helps!

[paulc 0]

Don't forget the RWG Shop sells top of the line watch tools

Thanks for the info, I have been walking past these in a shop window for about a week now and just bought them on impulse...£9.99 well spent PHEW! if I need any more tools I will check the RWG shop.

 

Sorry to hear about your troubles. I am having issues with a 2836-2 as well.

 

From your video there may be a loose screw, some dirt or even a hair that keeps the gear from

 

engaging the mainspring. To check, remove the rotor and the auto winding bridge. with all those

 

parts removed, you can see how it all works and see if something is jammed up.

 

Hope this helps!

 

Thankyou J.Eric, that is massively helpful and probably going to be my first step, thankyou again and hopefully you will sort your own 2836-2 issue

[J.Eric 693]

No Problem. Here are a few pics so you know what to expect. Sorry for the crappy cell quality....

 

 

 

 

 

If there is nothing jammed up in there, The next step would be to look at and maybe redo the keyless.

[paulc 0]

J.Eric, thankyou alot for the images, out of interest does your crown wheel move backwards and forwards easily, I dont mean rotate, I mean to mesh in and out with the wheel ontop of the spring case or housing (the brass one) Mine wobbles around and is not central at rest, the screw seems secure.

 

cheers for the images again they will certainly come in handy for refernce

Edited March 20, 2013 by paulc

[J.Eric 693]

Under that crown wheel there is lever that holds tension of that wheel and the brass one. There is a little U shaped spring

 

that will fly away if you are not careful. Since that wheel holds everything together, the spring may have come out of the groove.

 

 

 

[paulc 0]

Thankyou again J.Eric you are an absolute star, I take it that this is what is referred to as the click spring and i think that this may be my problem if it tensions the crown wheel, I am made up to discover that I can remove the crown wheel without removing the stem. I really cannot thank you enough for your help, I am just waiting for the power reserve to go before having a look.

Edited March 20, 2013 by paulc

[paulc 0]

I have looked at the crown wheel with the rotor off and I think that the fault lies in the keyless mechanism, the winding pinion is meshing with the crown wheel ok on winding, but the stem slipps NOT the crown wheel so I am guessing a winding pinion, clutch return or even a stem problem......Phew bracing myself for a keyless strip down.

 

thanks again J.Eric

Edited March 21, 2013 by paulc

[J.Eric 693]

Good luck with it. I just finished doing the keyless on a '67 Tissot.

 

Here is a thread with links to a very good tutorial....

 

http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?showtopic=18060

 

Its what I followed the first couple of times I did it.

[paulc 0]

Good luck with it. I just finished doing the keyless on a '67 Tissot.

 

Here is a thread with links to a very good tutorial....

 

http://www.rwg.bz/bo...showtopic=18060

 

Its what I followed the first couple of times I did it.

 

Thankyou, I have bookmarked the pages, I am getting everything ready for a weekend assault on my keyless lolol...Thankyou again J.Eric your help has been greatly appreciated.

 

just checking on removing the hands without the proper tool and also the stem re- insertion and removal position.

Edited March 21, 2013 by paulc

[edwinowl 180]

It's actually not to bad when you get into it, I made sure I popped the parts into separate little containers as they came off,actually used an artists pallet if I recall , then re installed them , good luck with it, remember no rush!

[SSTEEL 0]

Been enjoying following this thread, and its great to see members helping each other too. Great info contained, and brilliant detailed photos to boot. Well done all.

[paulc 0]

Yes, thankyou all for the info, I have also been getting some really helpful information from members by PM regarding the stem removal and replacement and it is greatly appreciated, it is a bit of a leap of faith for me but I am feeling much better about it now thanks to the help recieved.

[paulc 0]

looking for some tips on removing the face on my watch, It appears to have the two little hooks for retaining it on the movement and I have slipped out these out but there does not seem to be any posts like can be seen here http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?showtopic=15819.

 

is there any other way that it could be fixed because I think that i would bend it getting it off...could it be glued on :(

[paulc 0]

Ok, just by way of an update I failed miserably on this one but there was a silver lining too.

 

started off getting everything ready having read up and getting some great tips and advice on here even got the keyless tutorials on the pc ready to go

 

what could go wrong

 

even found a good use for some starbucks cups to put the bits in and got a soft mat from my brother to put on the table.

so off I went.

 

I set the watch to 12oclock and set the winder into the wind position and taking care not to depress the button too far I was pleasantly surprised to find that it came out very easily and to think that this was the bit that I was dreading the most, the stem appeared to be ok having compared it to some on ebay it looked the same.

 

 

Next to follow was the rotor which came off easily too, at this point I am pleased with my progress and taking my time, I notice that the stem has a what looks like a mark on the threaded bit but I dont think that it matters.

 

Then I removed the two retainers that hold the watch in the casing and the whole lot just fell out, I did improvise a makeshift holder with a table vice and some rubber jaws but I couldnt get it to hold the thing securely without putting too much pressure on the movement, there is a lot to be said for having the right tools,

 

So this is where it all started going to ratshit.

I made a dial face guard and set about removing the hands but at this point the bloody second hand started moving again and the winder was removed and set in the winding position so I waited and every time I started to put the guard under the hands it would go again, frustration was an understatement but eventually I used the springbar remover to pry the hands off.

 

and in the end I won but the victory was short lived

 

AT this point I went off on a tangent and left the movement in a plastic cup whilst I turned my attention to the case and testing it for waterproofing, I filled the gas escape valve (seen in this picture) in the side of the casing with 10 year white silicone and left it to dry,

 

then I assembled it with the stem and the case and filled a pint glass full of water

it was in a pint glass full of water for two hours and seemed fine

 

so I then put it in the dishwasher and gave it 5 cold rinse programmes obviously with no detergent but again it was all good and this was my silver lining in the black cloud because at least I know that it wont die a watery death whilst washing my hands.

 

Feeling a bit pleased with myself I set about removing the face of the watch, I read that this model has two retaining hooks that need slipping outwards before the face comes off and I found the hooks and slid them out of the locking position but NO WAY could I get the face off and I couldnt even see any posts for the hooks to clip onto and it was at this point after trying to pry the face off and seeing it starting to bend that I though "right bollox to this" and I decided to put the thing back together. I honestly think that this face is stuck on some other way.

I decided that I had been lucky so far and didnt want to push my luck.

 

Assembly went quite smoothly with the exception of fitting the hands back on, I used a biro pen refill and ended up getting finger prints on the hands that I tried to clean with a cotton bud but not very successfully although I was using a headtorch which was showing up any little mark and under normal light they looked ok.

 

Once I eventually got the thing back together I had to remove it a further two times to alter the hands because on 12 ocklock the hour hand was out by 3 minutes and then after reassembling again I noticed that the date was changing 15 minuted early so it was back out again for adjustment, so in total I had the stem in and out 4 times..PHEW.

 

 

 

Anyway in summing up THE FAULT IS STILL THERE but at least I now know that it is a keyless fault and I am happy to just accept that I will never hand wind this watch again although I would say that I HATE this watch but now feel a kind of iffinity with it because I have seen it without its clothes on if that makes any sense.

 

Anyway thankyou to all of the peeps who offered advice especially J.Eric who is a diamond, By the way, in future I wear watches and leave fixing them to the experts

 

back together and looking sharp despite being a scabby dawg

Edited March 22, 2013 by paulc

[slaughterer 0]

Dial is probably glued to the movement. You will not be able to access the keyless without prying that dial off. Problem is: you will probably damage the dial during removal. Welcome rep world! Sucks.

[paulc 0]

Dial is probably glued to the movement. You will not be able to access the keyless without prying that dial off. Problem is: you will probably damage the dial during removal. Welcome rep world! Sucks.

 

I though it may be glued but then I thought that unlikely because the datewheel needs to turn..may be wrong but yes it was not coming off in any fit state to go back on lol.

[paulc 0]

RIGHT ITS GAME BACK ON BECAUSE I NOW KNOW HOW TO REMOVE THE DIAL FACE

[slaughterer 0]

Found the dial release screws, eh? :dingleberry-nemesis:

[paulc 0]

Found the dial release screws, eh? :dingleberry-nemesis:

 

Nope none at at all just a push fit NO retention pins or nothing.

Edited March 23, 2013 by paulc

[paulc 0]

Just to end this thread I am going to upload some images for reference for any other poor soul who strips or resets a keyless because I would have been floundering about if other members had not posted images and the more the merrier when you have screws and springs all over the place.

 

carrying on from post 23 (above), I couldnt get the dial off but in a last ditch effort I pushed my nail under the face and gently pryed it away and I then discovered that this face has no retaining or fixing legs and was just relying on a snug fit,

 

so I then set about releasing the date wheel by loosening the coverplate that retains it and it came away really easy but I took the plate right off and with hindsight I reckon that it would have been better just to slacken it because the spring plate that gives the clicking noise on the datewheel came awat too, here it is in the picture also note that the keyless cover is removed in this photo.

 

THEN SHOCK HORROR the wheels that turn the datewheel also came away and they shot out of their housings because they were sprung so I though that it really was the end, see in the image

at this point I refitted the keyles cover because I was feeling that I was on a loser and didnt want any more escapee parts

The spanner shaped lever that is circled is sprung by the yolk and levers that are visible but the problem was getting it back in and in situ.

 

The solution was to put my sharp tweezers in the hole in the dial and drag the spring bar back whilst sliding the wheel into place, the relief was massive when it clicked into place but the secret here is the HOLE in the wheel, without it the job is shitsville. see the hole in the movement this is where the hole in the wheel locates with the tweezers when sliding the bar back.

 

So with these bits refitted I continued to strip down the keyless only to find that my original winding problem was being caused by the teeth on the winding pinion against the clutch so after all the messing about I needed parts, so I decided just to re assemble the watch.

 

all of the bits in order

 

 

whilst assembling the keyless I noted that my movement had a spare hole that on pictures of other movements that I was using for refernce had a plate and screw in but mine..nothing...anyway I carried on thinking that it must be normal in my case, see image and circled hole.

Note the cheeky datewheel sprockets back in their correct places.

 

Anyway, I struggled like a fool getting the datewheel back on and I mean struggled but after stepping back and having a bit of a rest I started with a fresh approach and the stupid thing just fell into place..AFTER HOURS OF MESSING ABOUT it just fell into position.

so after I ensured that the date wheel was working ok I refitted the hands after again ensuring that the hands were on the 12 ocklock position as the date rolled over.

I put it all back in its case, never to be hand winded ever again but at least I know that I can order parts and repair it if i ever get a spare 24 hours to do the job

[edwinowl 180]

I think the hole you refer to is for day/date wheels pal. I've just spent a couple of hours doing two keyless on 2836. I had a problem when I tried to set the hands as the hour hand was fine but the minute hand kept disengaging then re engaging. Anyway after much investigation I found one of the wheels a few teeth short so changed it out of a spare movement. So,far so good. I now await my ETA hands hopefully to a finish for a little 6538 build.