Jump to content
greg_r

Movements found in replicas - a quick FAQ

Recommended Posts

Kurthh

This is great info .

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sherbert79

Howdy

Thinking of pulling the trigger on a Daytona 116500 from Toro but not familiar with the movement, it states a A4130......can anyone help with some details, is it reliable etc??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Luxuracer
10 minutes ago, sherbert79 said:

Howdy

Thinking of pulling the trigger on a Daytona 116500 from Toro but not familiar with the movement, it states a A4130......can anyone help with some details, is it reliable etc??


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You need to be more specific ... which factory?

JF, ARF, and Noob Daytona have different movements. 

JF uses an Asian 23J no-chrono and an A7750. 

ARF use a modified A7750. Noob uses a super clone A4130

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
sherbert79
You need to be more specific ... which factory?
JF, ARF, and Noob Daytona have different movements. 
JF uses an Asian 23J no-chrono and an A7750. 
ARF use a modified A7750. Noob uses a super clone A4130


Sorry, forgot to attach the link, it’s this

http://www.toro.fun/index.php?route=product/product&path=39_214&product_id=2669


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Kayo

@greg_r what do you think about this movement "Custom designed Asian automatic movement to match the genuine Panerai P.9000 movement at 28800vph, same balance wheel position as genuine P.9000 movement." from vsf, i saw some post saying its similar to a7750, do they share parts? is it easy to service / repair and replace parts?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
fkr

This guide got me startet in the rep world. Thank you very very much!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MooKing

Wow, this is great. Thanks a lot for this info!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rolex2020
On 28/07/2010 at 18:34, greg_r said:

I've thrown this together in a rush in response to a question asked by a new member in the shoutbox. I suddenly realised that we didn't have an extensive comparison between the various types of movements found in reps and it's something that newbies would find useful.

Like I said, I've thrown this together in a real hurry, so I'll be grateful for corrections, additions etc. I'll update and correct the post with any useful info and correction that you guys come up with.

Common movements used in rep watches

Non-chronos (i.e. if the watch has subdials, they will not work in the same way as the gen)

1. 21J/DG2813 (note that despite the "21J" description these movements usually run 23 jewels). This is a generic term used to cover a wide variety of cheap Chinese movements - some are better than others, but as a general rule they are low-beat (21,600vph / 6 'ticks' per second) movements, very cheaply built (from as little as $7 for the whole movement) but generally reliable and easy to live with. Usually automatic, but occasionally hand wind, dependent on the watch. A lot of really nice budget watches come with these fitted and whilst the sweep isn't as smooth as, say, a gen Rolex, they're damned good value for money and can just be thrown away and replaced if they break or need a service.

There's also the DG4813 variant, which is high-beat but this has become very difficult to obtain of late, so is not commonly seen. It has largely been replaced by the Z2 (see below)

2. Z2 aka 'high beat 2813' aka various other names (POS in some quarters :lol: ). Some have suggested that this is one to avoid, but it's not quite that clear cut. Basically a cheap 28,800vph alternative to the "Asian ETA" movements, these are occasionally swapped into existing models by the factories without informing the dealers. Reliability can be okay - provided you get a good one. The real issue is that there are no parts available, so servicing can be a problem. The Asian ETAs are a much better choice, but these are maybe worth considering if the price is right - just don't be conned into buying high-priced reps with 'em, it ain't worth it.

3. Asian 'clone' ETA (A2824/A2836 & variants): These are literally copies/clones of the equivalent Swiss (ETA) automatic movements. Generally high quality - although not as well built as the Swiss equivalents - but reliable and with parts generally available (which makes servicing an easier proposition than some other movements). High beat (28,800) and great value. Probably the best choice of movement for higher-quality reps as they give the smooth sweep found in most gen watches

4. Swiss ETA (2836/2824 as above): Supposedly the genuine ETA (owned by swatch group) swiss automatic movements. This is a complete lottery. ETA have not been supplying ebauches outside Swatch group for several years now. There are NO new ETA movements in reps any more - only refurbished (usually with Asian parts). On top of that, as anyone who's been in the game for a while should know, factories tell the dealer the spec of the watch they're producing - and the dealers then use that for their sales pitch. That spec often then changes dependent on what parts the factories have available on a particular day - about which they DO NOT inform the dealers. Given that dealers DO NOT take the back off the watch during QC (nor should they), they're as much in the dark about it as you. At best you get a refurbished (i.e. used) movement with asian parts in it. I wouldn't recommend spending extra for ETA in a rep these days - more often than not, you'll be getting an asian clone.

5. Sellita: As mentioned above, supply of ETA movements is getting very difficult as Swatch group are no longer selling ebauches outside their own group of companies. Sellita are another Swiss company who make a very similar range of high-quality movements. We've seen a few reps with "Swiss ETA" being supplied with Sellitas, but they're fairly rare.

6. Rolex 3135 copy (and other Rolex clone movements). This is an Asian clone ETA automatic movement with modified rotor and bridges to make it look more like the real thing. It's not going to convince anybody who knows their Rolex movements and tends to be less reliable than the alternatives (as well as being more expensive!). There are newer versions beginning to appear which are a little more reliable and look closer to the gen, but they are still near impossible to service and generally inferior to the clone ETAs. Rolex have closed casebacks anyhow, so I really don't see the point in paying the extra for what is, effectively, just a higher-priced and less reliable Asian clone movement.

There is one notable exception to the above - the Yuki-sourced movement used by JF in their new (as of 2017) high-end subs. This is a proper copy of the Rolex movements (to the extent of being compatible with a lot of gen parts) and is much better quality than the modified Asian ETA-based clones otherwise supplied in reps. A good movement and well worth consideration.

7. Miyota 9015. With the disappearance of gen ETA movements, some reps are now coming with Japanese Miyota-sourced movements. The 9015 is a case in point - a high-beat 28,800vph 25 jewel movement that is an excellent alternative to ETA or clone ETA models mentioned above. Highly reliable and very good quality. Don't hesitate.

8. Miyota 8215. As above, a solid workhorse movement. The only gotcha is that the second hand on these movements tends to stutter a little and is therefore a lot less smooth than the 9015 or, say, an Asian 2836 clone. The amount of stutter is dependent on the weight of the second hand - the heavier/longer the hand, the worse it's going to be. I'd certainly avoid this movement on watches such as Tudors which tend to have "snowflake" hands. Although the 8215 is reliable, for this reason I would tend to think carefully before buying a watch with this movement.

9. Sea-Gull. Sea-Gull are a chinese maker of both movements and watches. Quality is very close to that of the Swiss and Japanese manufacturers and they're generally a very safe buy - they make clones of several well-known movements (such as the 6497) as well as their own designs. The ST2555 has lately been turning up in quite a few reps. As with Miyota, they're a good choice. Don't hesitate.

10. A6497/A6498: An Asian copy of the Unitas 6497 or 6498 movement. Common in Panerai and various others - it's an ultra-reliable yet inexpensive hand wind movement available with or without swan-neck regulator. Note, however, that there are several different grades and some are better built than others. However, they're easy to service and generally bombproof. Either 18,000vph (5 'ticks' per second) or 21600 vph (6 'ticks' per second) but it is hard to tell the difference visually due to the short seconds hand (where fitted). It can come with or without a seconds hand, but usually with. If it has a seconds hand, the 6497 has the seconds hand opposite the crown (i.e. at 9 if the crown is at 3) whereas the 6498 has the seconds 90 degrees to the left of the crown (i.e. at 6 if the crown is at 3).

11. Swiss Unitas 6497/6498: Again, a hand wind movement. They used to be found in some higher-end Panerai reps but that has now ended since ETA quit supplying ebauches outside Swatch Group some years back.

12. Molnija: Not common these days, but DSN and others have used them on occasion - mainly for vintage Panerai models. This is actually a Russian-built descendant of the Cortebert (latterly Rolex) hand-wind pocketwatch movements used by Panerai and others in the 40s-50s. Very high quality but parts can be tricky to obtain. Functionally similar to the 6497 above and generally reliable, but less robust than the 6497.

13. Asian 52010 aka Liaoning SL6601. This movement has started to appear in the IWC 5007 and could, of course, turn up in other reps with similar functions in due course. It supports secs@9, PR @3 plus date. Liaoning are another well-established Chinese maker of movements - quality is generally good, although parts can be difficult to obtain. Should be relatively easy to service and reliability appears to be decent.

Then there are a few that don't fit any of the above groups. Movements advertised as "Asian 23J with power reserve" being probably the most common. These can vary from being basic 21J's with an added module for the PR complication to something like Sea Gull's 23J PR movement - the latter being of rather better quality than most other low-beat autos and likely to be long-term reliable. You'll also see 'Asian 35J" movements advertised fairly frequently - which can also be from a range of sources but are often higher-quality generic Chinese movements similar to the Sea-Gull mentioned above - not as good as a normal Asian clone or other mainstream movement and generally low-beat, but can be good value for money in the right rep. One last oddity worth mentioning is the A7750 as described below. This is sometimes used as a regular automatic movement with the chrono complications removed (most often in Panerai autos). In this form it is much less fragile and many of the caveats mentioned elsewhere no longer apply. Likewise you will - even more rarely - find the same non-chrono A7750 with the auto-wind mechanism removed. This essentially removes the fragile parts that can be damaged by hand-winding on the normal version and is, likewise, not subject to most of the caveats noted elsewhere.

 

Chrono movements:

Japan OS chrono (aka Japan Quartz aka a variety of other names): Basically cheap quartz chrono movements (i.e. battery powered). Reliable, great timekeepers, cheap. There's a couple of varieties with different features, but quality is the same. If you can live with a ticking chrono hand (and seconds subdial) rather than the smooth sweep provided by autos, then there's no reason not to buy one of these. Note that there are 'smooth sweep' quartz movements available and they very occasionally show up in reps. They're a bit more expensive than regular quartz, but good quality. The smooth sweep applies to center seconds (i.e. the chrono hand) only, however - not running seconds in a subdial.

A7750 (occasionally called Asian Valjoux 7750): The standard automatic chrono movement used in a vast range of replica watches. Usually high-beat (28,800vph), but there is an older low-beat (21,600 vph) variant which still pops up now and again. Occasionally converted to hand-wind and also used in some non-chrono reps. Can be fragile and is difficult to service due to the lack of available spares. When serviced and running properly, however, it's solid and works well. See the separate sticky about caveats as there are problems with some adaptations to this movement: http://www.replica-watches-guide.com/forum...?showtopic=6101

A7753: This is a variant on the A7750 and not a true clone of the Swiss 7753. Its primary difference from the A7750 is that its native position for subdials is 3, 6, 9 as opposed to 6, 9,12 for the 7750. The resulting lack of transfer gearing needed to move the subdials into the more common 3, 6, 9 position reduces the distance between datewheel and dial eliminating the 'sunken datewheel' seen on many reps. These movement also frequently feature a pusher (usually flush) at the 10 position which operates quick-set date. So far it has only made it into a handful of fairly recent models (notably Panerai). In other respects it shares the same strengths and weaknesses with its A7750 sibling, but the lack of transfer gearing does make it a little more robust in some cases.

A7751: This is a goodie as it replicates all the functions of the genuine Swiss movement including working moonphase complication. Found in a limited number of reps (notably a couple of Longines and Patek models). Should be treated gently but generally appears to be reliable.

Swiss Valjoux 7750: Used to appear in high-priced reps occasionally, but no longer available to the rep makers since ETA quit supplying ebauches to makers outside Swatch Group.

Copy Venus (or sometimes inaccurately described as Lemania). Actually a Sea Gull ST19 - fundamentally the same as the original Swiss Venus movement as Sea-Gull bought the original tooling. This is an excellent handwind chrono movement. Very reliable and feels like quality. The most robust chrono movement in reps outside of quartz options. Don't hesitate.

Ok so I’m looking to buy a rose gold Daytona with a chocolate dial.. which mechanism is the best as I am after a super clone..As close to the real thing as possible

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Glaude
1 minute ago, Rolex2020 said:

Ok so I’m looking to buy a rose gold Daytona with a chocolate dial.. which mechanism is the best as I am after a super clone..As close to the real thing as possible

That was not what I was saying when I was pointing you at those threads :D 

You will hardly find any immediate answer to your question like that, you need to do a lot more reading of the various threads of the forum.
I'll give you two tips :
- As far as I know, there's no chocolate dial on a daytona rep right now, but you can email a TD (the list is everywhere) and ask them this question, they will answer you if they can have it or not (provide a picture of the watch you want can help)
- Have a look at the TD website to see if your model exists, look at the specs listed and make a search on the forum to see if you find any info on the movement, for example.
Lastly, forget the 1:1, AAA etc... there's no perfect replica, you'll always find something wrong !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rolex2020

Ok I get get you now.. I’ve seen some for really cheap buy others for 1500 dollars what’s the deal there? Am guessing you get what you pay for or is the later just a rip off job?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Rolex2020

Hi can anybody give me some info on this watch as I am about to buy it and don’t know if the movement is good or if it will last..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Luxuracer
17 minutes ago, Rolex2020 said:

Hi can anybody give me some info on this watch as I am about to buy it and don’t know if the movement is good or if it will last..

Create a new topic. Post your question with a link to the watch you want to buy.

Stay away from all the 'random' replica websites. Stick with TD List (trusted dealers) here.

I have some answers and suggestion for you, but I will not post in this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ricardoak

how are you , 

I have a Panerai 47mm with the ceramic bezel , 

movement inside say P 9000 , 

what Chinese movement is this ? ,

I need a replacement for it ,

would appreciate your help.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Glaude
1 hour ago, Ricardoak said:

how are you , 

I have a Panerai 47mm with the ceramic bezel , 

movement inside say P 9000 , 

what Chinese movement is this ? ,

I need a replacement for it ,

would appreciate your help.

Post a picture of it

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Luxuracer
2 hours ago, Ricardoak said:

how are you , 

I have a Panerai 47mm with the ceramic bezel

movement inside say P 9000 , 

what Chinese movement is this ? ,

I need a replacement for it ,

would appreciate your help.

You probably have a PAM389 with a clone P9000 movement. I do not think you can get them anyplace else other than from one of the TDs.

Get all the information as much as you can about your rep and email a bunch of TDs.

And it would help if you post pictures of your watch and movement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GenTLe
Ok I get get you now.. I’ve seen some for really cheap buy others for 1500 dollars what’s the deal there? Am guessing you get what you pay for or is the later just a rip off job?
 
Mate the only Daytona real clone movement is in the noob factory ones. I don't know if they make the model you want anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GingerBubba
5 minutes ago, GenTLe said:
On 05/12/2018 at 03:16, Rolex2020 said:
Ok I get get you now.. I’ve seen some for really cheap buy others for 1500 dollars what’s the deal there? Am guessing you get what you pay for or is the later just a rip off job?
 

Mate the only Daytona real clone movement is in the noob factory ones. I don't know if they make the model you want anyway.

Dude, you just answered someone who was banned a week ago. Doh!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GenTLe
Dude, you just answered someone who was banned a week ago. Doh!
Lol :)
Not directly visible from Tapatalk ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ricardoak

would a Seagull st 2555 fit my watch ?

yes it is the Pan 389 with the clone P9000 inside from trusty t ,

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
adamsapple
Looking at a couple of movements that I hope to be high quality but want to confirm information as I can not find answer on this forum.
 
1- Swiss Unitas 6497 Hand Wind movement. On the above list says that this movement has been discontinued, so if it is in the watch should I be suspicious of its originality and if it is the stated movement is the quality good?
2- Platinum Plated Asia Clone 8906 Automatic Movement 28800bph with Decorated Rotor & Bridges/Plates to look like Genuine Omega Calibre 8906. Can not find any information on this movement does anyone know what the quality of this movement is like and an overall description of the movement.
 
Both watches from one of your trusted dealers so they are most likely what they say they are.
 
Any feedback would be appreciated.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wreckman

Wow what an eye opener! I did not realize there were so many different movements, thanks for the information.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GenTLe

Guys, just a quick one please.

SH3135 vs SA3135.

I know the good one is the 1st one (SH3135). 

Am I correct if I say that to distinguish them:

On SH3135 it's fully red and the stem release button is in line with the pin on its right, like on this:

submariner-16610lv-ss-jf-1-1-best-editio

 

 

While the SA3135 has the teeth of the red gear NOT painted and the stem release button is more near to the center than the pin on its right, like on this below?

submariner-116610-ln-black-ceramic-lf-1-

 

Thanks, GenTLe

Edited by GenTLe

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Luxuracer

Yes ... @GenTLe
That is one way to tell them apart.

One other way is to look at the balance wheel. The micro error adjustment lever (the 'big' one with one 'dot') of theSH3135 is on the right, and the SA3135 is on the left.

moeVf.md.jpg

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
GenTLe
Yes ... [mention=57251]GenTLe[/mention]
That is one way to tell them apart.
One other way is to look at the balance wheel. The micro error adjustment lever (the 'big' one with one 'dot') of theSH3135 is on the right, and the SA3135 is on the left.
moeVf.md.jpg
 
Thanks mate, good info!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Bassguygt

This might be the best thread on the forum. Super useful

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×