ETA Clone QC........NOT!!

[Brightlight 0]

I've just stripped down my first ETA 2836-2 clone (yes Andygt, it's yours), the owner compained he was getting a very poor power reserve (I believe the watch is fairly new) and I was really looking forward to seeing how it compared with the swiss ETA. Apart from there being no sign of oil and rather more dirt and dust than there should be in a movement this new, the parts seem much the same as the swiss (though I have not compared side by side) though the 'gold' coating on the plates, etc, is not as even as the swiss. However, the thing that frightened the sh*t out of me was the screw that holds the Ratchet Wheel onto the spring arbor was very loose and hanging by a thread, literally (arrowed in the photo), and the Ratchet Wheel was obviously loose as well. I'm surprised it wound at all - (with apologies for the pic)

 

 

A couple of other observations, I have seen somewhere that the clones can be identified by the ETA stamp being cast in. Not the case on this sample, it is a stamp. Also the '2836-2' is very lightly stamped. The only obvious differences between this and a swiss 2836-2 I have is the upper shock mounting (one cutout instead of three) and the clones have more holes in the auto reverser gears.

 

This does raise questions about the longevity of these movements if the screws are not being tightened properly, there is little attention to oiling and cleanliness is not considered important.

[AustinTech 0]

Daaaaaang, thats messed up. These reps are so hit and miss...

[Ska 11]

Just goes to show, if you're after a rep thats going to last you more than a couple of months, get the fucker serviced.

 

Always money well spent IMO.

 

If you want to save the money for more watches (and lets face it who wouldn't) then just learn how to do a basic service yourself!

[JoeyB 0]

If you want to save the money for more watches (and lets face it who wouldn't) then just learn how to do a basic service yourself!

That is next on the agenda after I finish up a few projects. Working on the movement scares me, and it's all so tiny for these old eyes and not so nimble anymore fingers! But it is something I will should learn because when there is a problem with the movement you either spend almost what you paid for the rep to have it repaired, or use it for spare parts which brings you back to repairing it yourself. It only makes sense.

[andygt 0]

No wonder I was getting little or no power reserve at all, lucky that screw didnt come completely loose and totally ruin the movement!

)ust as an aside the caseback has never been removed from the watch and has only been worn at home or in the office at work so the majority of that dirt has been there since I bought it. You would hope a swiss movement would be better manufactured but I guess it could still be as filthy and unoiled as the clone.

 

cheers again for helping me out, BL

[KBH 7]

Do you think these Eta stamps are put on at the factory? I've always figured the movement factories were legitimate businesses and all this counterfeit crap happens after they leave the factory. That would certainly explain why the movements we get are often dirty and poorly assembled.

 

Makes me wonder?

[gB. 0]

If you want to save the money for more watches (and lets face it who wouldn't) then just learn how to do a basic service yourself!

Any good tutorials here on how to service one yourself?

[speedzmaster 0]

And to think, somebody, and you know who you are, said that the Asian movements were just as good as the Swiss.

[prestigewatchco 2]

what you think the Swiss movements sourced in the Far East are all clean and oiled? having a laugh are you. Some are older than you and have been hanging around in terrible conditions for donkeys years. There are 3-4 grades of ETA clones the Cheapest cost $40 the better ones closer to $80 . the better ones in both 2836 and 8497 are every bit as well finished as the Swiss version and as an added bonus fresh off the production line

[andygt 0]

Problem is actually getting the swiss movement you have paid for too though, Speedz.

 

By the way if anyone was wondering, the movement is from the Precius Time 'Supreme' 16610 sub alias the WM9 V1.

[narikaa 129]

I often wonder what all the ETA SWISS mantra chanters think the ETA factory in Thailand produces

 

 

 

 

Toblerones?

 

 

 

.

[Wiz 0]

all the ETA SWISS mantra chanters

 

What does "chanter" means please?

[prestigewatchco 2]

all the ETA SWISS mantra chanters

 

What does "chanter" means please?

 

Chanter is some one who sings praise

[JoeyB 0]

It seems to me that Robert and Reg are the absolute experts on all aspects of rep watches including the movements. They are both here to do business, and we are here to save money. Both 'steer' us away from the "Swiss ETA" in the reps that costs us more and they likely make more with. They have the knowledge and experience that Mary doesn't yet have, but all 3 strike me as being very honest with us about a not so honest business. I think that speaks volumes for them and we are very fortunate to have them here and allowing us to 'tap their brain' to make a good purchase.

 

I know RolexAddict has covered this in the past as well, so for me the Asian ETA or the 21j are the two choices I will go with on all my future purchases. For those few that I want something really special I will go with the genuine Swiss ETA 2893-2, regardless where it might be assembled.

I feel better about my purchases with 'Trusted Dealers' that have earned that TRUST.

[KBH 7]

The experts sometimes talk in riddles though.

 

It's well known there are 3 or 4 grades of movements and that some Eta production is in the Far East. It's also well known that a lot of rep movements are used and/or old.

 

Are we now to believe every movement marked Eta is actually an Eta movement? What say the experts?

[greg_r 82]

And to think, somebody, and you know who you are, said that the Asian movements were just as good as the Swiss.

 

They are - at least when they've been properly assembled/serviced. They're virtually identical to the gen item.

 

The problem is QC - and if you think the QC on china-repfactory-sourced ETAs is going to be any better (assuming you actually GET an ETA - from most dealers you'll still get the clone 9 times out of 10), you seriously need to get a grip - most of the time they're cruddy, second-hand unserviced units that will be in no better state than the movement you see above. The exception is if you buy from Robert...

 

9 times out of 10, the Asian clone is still the sensible buy - but if you want that watch to last, get it serviced.

[Silverspeed 10]

It will always be a bit of a gamble, whether Swiss or Clone. I don't believe many factories are

very consistent in the type/grade movement are fitted. I'm sure dealers have experienced

lots of variables..a top grade Asian Clone in one and the next one can be fitted with an crummy,

dry and dirty movement.

 

In general the 2824/2836 movements are very reliable...at least with me they have almost never caused

me any issues, clone or (alleged) Swiss

[JoeyB 0]

The experts sometimes talk in riddles though.

 

It's well known there are 3 or 4 grades of movements and that some Eta production is in the Far East. It's also well known that a lot of rep movements are used and/or old.

 

Are we now to believe every movement marked Eta is actually an Eta movement? What say the experts?

Sometimes they do, but usually after the 713th time they are asked the same question!

 

The 'grades' that ETA assigns are not based on the material or parts, but on the testing to keeping time. The 'lower grade' is only tested right side up and upside down, while the highest grade is tested from all angles, and the middle grades in between those. The extra money is for the time and labor to test, not anything in the movement itself. You could get, by luck of the draw, a lower grade ETA that is more accurate than the highest COSC grade but it just wasn't tested to that level.

[KBH 7]

The experts sometimes talk in riddles though.

 

It's well known there are 3 or 4 grades of movements and that some Eta production is in the Far East. It's also well known that a lot of rep movements are used and/or old.

 

Are we now to believe every movement marked Eta is actually an Eta movement? What say the experts?

Sometimes they do, but usually after the 713th time they are asked the same question!

 

The 'grades' that ETA assigns are not based on the material or parts, but on the testing to keeping time. The 'lower grade' is only tested right side up and upside down, while the highest grade is tested from all angles, and the middle grades in between those. The extra money is for the time and labor to test, not anything in the movement itself. You could get, by luck of the draw, a lower grade ETA that is more accurate than the highest COSC grade but it just wasn't tested to that level.

 

Only partly true, and a small part at that. The more expensive movements are also finished differently and have a lot of higher grade parts, from hairsprings to shock assemblies. The COSC movements are made from start to finish to be COSC certified. If they don't make it they get bumped out to a lower grade. But the low grade movements are never meant to be a higher grade.

 

And no one, to my knowledge has specifically said that all the movements that we have been calling clones for the last couple of years are actually gen Eta, although Rolexaddict has come close. The ones that have different shock, different reversing gears, the crummy looking stampings, etc. Now it seems like that's what's is being implied that these are actually coming from an Eta factory.

[Brightlight 0]

Just to recap, this is definitely a clone and a new one, not an old Swiss movement. Sadly I have 30/40 year old movements(ETA2783 produced 1969-1976) that came out of a vintage watch a damn sight cleaner than this one did and with a good lube are set for another 30/40 years! Having said that, I believe the clones with a good clean and service are just as likely to last as long a time as the 'swiss' ones are, there seems to be no intrinsic problem with them.

 

envisagevi, I hope to produce a tutorial on this soon, but of course this will not be for everyone, the challenges fitting the gear train bridge without breaking the pins on the escapement wheel take a long time to come to terms with for example (locating four pins simultaneously in their respective jewels). I have learned to be very patient and gentle with this one!! Learning has been a sad progression of broken pins and missing jewels.... Springs also have a propensity for disappearing until you get the hang of removing and replacing them. Mainsprings and balance wheels can be quite frightening. But there is nothing all that difficult about any of it as long as you can work with tweezers under a loupe. For cleaning an ultrasonic cleaner is almost a necessity, as is watch degreaser fluid. For those who are not of a mechanical bent, I am also considering offering servicing of 28xx movements for EU members, though I haven't by any means decided this yet.

[JoeyB 0]

Only partly true, and a small part at that. The more expensive movements are also finished differently and have a lot of higher grade parts, from hairsprings to shock assemblies. The COSC movements are made from start to finish to be COSC certified. If they don't make it they get bumped out to a lower grade. But the low grade movements are never meant to be a higher grade.

 

And no one, to my knowledge has specifically said that all the movements that we have been calling clones for the last couple of years are actually gen Eta, although Rolexaddict has come close. The ones that have different shock, different reversing gears, the crummy looking stampings, etc. Now it seems like that's what's is being implied that these are actually coming from an Eta factory.

I know the finish or fancy engraving is different for the different grades in ETA, but I was told the hard parts are all the same.

 

I think that several people have said that they have seen with their own eyes boxes and boxes of ETA parts while visiting in China. And that these parts are assembled there. Someone even said that they are assembled for ETA in China.

I don't know. I'm going to stick to my 'game plan' until I have to change it!

[JoeyB 0]

... of course this will not be for everyone, the challenges fitting the gear train bridge without breaking the pins on the escapement wheel take a long time to come to terms with for example (locating four pins simultaneously in their respective jewels). I have learned to be very patient and gentle with this one!! Learning has been a sad progression of broken pins and missing jewels.... Springs also have a propensity for disappearing until you get the hang of removing and replacing them. Mainsprings and balance wheels can be quite frightening.

OKe. Quartz it is!!

[prestigewatchco 2]

KBH I certainly never implied the Gen ETA are manufactured in Thailand. In fact as I understand it the Thai factory make complete quartz movements and only parts for automatics.

The main source of ETA used to be India but that source has some time ago been exhausted for new movements and only reconditioned movements are now available in India these may or not be reconditioned at ETA,

 

I don't think anyone was suggesting that all the 2836 with bad stamping are Gen ETA at all. You have to concede though that when ETA were making complete auto movements in SE Asia that the likely hood of the actual Swiss manufactured movements being readily available in China is highly unlikely and far more likely the Gen ETA in China were in all probability manufactured in SE Asia so the Swiss label was very rarely correct

[KBH 7]

Agreed Robert, When I say gen Eta I mean from an Eta factory made to their specifications. I thought I remember that Eta also had a factory in the Philippines for low end auto movements. I'd still rather have a gen Eta from the Philippines or India, assuming it was new, than a Chinese clone.

 

My original statement was just wondering how the clone movements end up with Eta stampings because I doubted they came from the Chinese factory like that. And logic says that that have to be disassembled and re-assembled to put the stamps on. This would certainly explain why even the Chinese clones that get stamped can be dirty and poorly assembled. I suppose though that if you can take apart a $40 movement and sell it for $100, it's still very profitable to the rep makers.

 

And I know there's probably no readily available answers to these things but I find it interesting and, obviously spend too much time thinking about them.

[Brightlight 0]

... of course this will not be for everyone, the challenges fitting the gear train bridge without breaking the pins on the escapement wheel take a long time to come to terms with for example (locating four pins simultaneously in their respective jewels). I have learned to be very patient and gentle with this one!! Learning has been a sad progression of broken pins and missing jewels.... Springs also have a propensity for disappearing until you get the hang of removing and replacing them. Mainsprings and balance wheels can be quite frightening.

OKe. Quartz it is!!

 

Lol Joey, it's not that difficult, really it isn't! Now go and wash your mouth out with soap, Quartz indeed!!