DOA Black Bay, ETA Movement ID Advise please?

[JSJ 0]

I reckon you're on track to fix this mate.

 

Maybe you fixed the seconds hand issue and introduced the ones where the dial isn't seated. It doesn't take much to stop these little machines.

 

There are probably two small posts sticking out the back of the dial, clamped in place by two screws on the side of the movement. Search some threads (I can't because I'm on my phone) and you will see pics.

 

Don't take the screws out, just loosen them and you will be able to seat the dial properly.

 

Don't touch the dial surface with anything, they are really easy to mark and practically impossible to fix. Also, when you reassemble, use a loupe to look very closely over the dial and hands for any tiny bits of crud. They will look huge after you notice them with the watch back together. Don't ask me how I know this.

 

Good luck!

[JSJ 0]

Oh I just re-read your post. The spacer is exactly that. The dial sandwiches the spacer to the movement, fixed by the two clamped posts. At least that's in all the watches I've had apart that have spacers.

 

It's quite easy to move the dial by mistake when you're handling the dial/movement assembly. The clamps are not that good.

[ShovelnTC 31]

I reckon you're on track to fix this mate.

 

Maybe you fixed the seconds hand issue and introduced the ones where the dial isn't seated. It doesn't take much to stop these little machines.

 

There are probably two small posts sticking out the back of the dial, clamped in place by two screws on the side of the movement. Search some threads (I can't because I'm on my phone) and you will see pics.

 

Don't take the screws out, just loosen them and you will be able to seat the dial properly.

 

Don't touch the dial surface with anything, they are really easy to mark and practically impossible to fix. Also, when you reassemble, use a loupe to look very closely over the dial and hands for any tiny bits of crud. They will look huge after you notice them with the watch back together. Don't ask me how I know this.

 

Good luck!

 

Thanks for your assistance, I'm not sure if it is the dial or the actual movement that is out of place.

 

Looking from underneath it looks like the movement isn't pressed in as far on the 6 O'clock side as the 12 O'clock side but it looks like the movement is just pressed into the ring and appaers to be a tight fit.

 

I'm guessing that I would need to remove the dial to press the movement in square.

 

The dial feet are secured with the cam type locks and they look VERY small for my clumsy hands to get to.

 

I have had a response from the dealer and even though I told them that I had opened her up and removed the movement they have still offered to repair it if I send it back.

 

It seems a lot of trouble to send it back when it looks like I am so close but I'm tending to want to just so I don't have to take the risk of damaging it during the fix.

 

The movement has now been running on the bench for almost 12 hours and has gained a couple of seconds but certainly hasn't stopped so I'm pretty confident it is a good movement.

 

I'll leave it overnight and see if it's still going in the morning then I'll have to decide whether to send it back or not.

[JSJ 0]

Ah, don't give up now! Dial or movement out of place, same thing. If it's been running 12 hours and gained a couple of seconds, sounds good to me. You can do this!

 

If the movement is held in with cam locks, take a look at my Portuguese secs@6 fix thread. That should help you see how they work.

 

Agree about sleeping on it. You must be on the opposite side of the world from me. I'm thinking about lunch.

[JSJ 0]

http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?/topic/69834-IWC-3714-Portuguese-secs@6-A7750-fixed-(pics)

That's the thread with the pic of the brass dial retention cam on a 7750 movement. Maybe they are similar, Idk. They are fiddly but like everything, you get used to the knack.

[ShovelnTC 31]

Yep just finished reading the post, your a brave man!!!

 

I'll have a closer look in the morning (I'm in Aus, Sat night) and my eyes are a touch tired to get back into it now.

 

Thanks for your interest and help.

 

I'll keep you informed.

 

Cheers, Mark.

[Mystery Shopper 5,887]

Mark, I like the way you are working through this and learning as you go.

 

 

 

Me- I would have just contacted the dealer and gone from there.

[ShovelnTC 31]

Mark, I like the way you are working through this and learning as you go.

 

 

 

Me- I would have just contacted the dealer and gone from there.

 

Yes Scott it's tearing me at the moment as I love it when I can sort something out myself (with the help of friends here on the forum) but at the same time the dealer has offered to sort it for me even though I have opened the watch up which I'm tempted to do.

 

If this was one of my older cheaper reps I'd be into it without hesitation but at well over $300 invested in a brand new watch I'm no so keen to rip into it.

[J!m 289]

This looks like an easy fix now...

 

The movement ring SHOULD be fairly loose around the movement- may take some coaxing but should come off the OD of the movement to get a better look at what is going on here.

 

Then the dial clamps can be loosened, the dial pressed fully home, and then the clamps slid back into place.

 

Now wind the hands around to midnight and see that they are flat, parallel and have clearance for each other as well as the appplied markers on the dial. I have a feeling the TC movement will work well as the tall hand stack will clear the applied indicies better, but I think we can work with this. Also be sure the hands are not twisted on their pinions- meaning the left edge is not lower/highewr than the right edge- they need to be perfect as there will only be about 0.010" clearance between them.

 

Next the ring goes back on, you wind it up and leave it under glass overnight to see if the problem is sorted.

 

when casing up, you have to be mindful of the clamps- they may need a bend to ensure they are clamping well.

 

Keep us posted...

[ShovelnTC 31]

OK so the movement whilst removed from the case and with hands still fitted has now run on the bench for almost 24 hours so I think I can be confident that the movement is OK.

 

I still haven't got my head around just how the movement, movement holder and dial stay together as although I see how the movement is pressed towards the crystal and the dial is clamped to the movement and the movement mounting tabs press down on both the movement and the movement spacer I can't see what stops the movement from pushing past the case "lip" as I believe the movement is narrower than that so in my eyes the movement could still be sitting too close to the crystal.

 

My other concern is that using my digital vernier, even on the fully pressed down side of the dial there is really no space between the top of the second hand tip and the crystal so tolerances must be very fine so I also see that there may be the possibility that the case may have been machined slightly off creating a high side but who knows and I don't have the skills to get perfect measurements.

 

So in a nutshell I still don't really know exactly what the problem is only that it is most likely an alignment / fitment issue rather than a movement function problem.

 

Anyway at this point I have re-assembled the watch as is because I am really finding the tiny size of things very difficult and looking at the dial pin clamps I am not confident that I can release them without damaging something.

 

I will monitor the assembled watch for another day and if I find it is still stopping I think I am going to take up the dealers offer to repair.

 

I would have really preferred to fix this myself with you guys help but being that the dealer has offered to help even though I have tinkered with it (which I think is pretty generous of him really) I just know that if I end up damaging the watch I will beat myself up for some time to come being that I could have just taken the wimps option of sending it back.

 

So to all that have offered help I really do appreciate your time and input and I'm sorry that I didn't reward all of us by sorting this thing out.

 

I'll update if anything interesting comes of it.

 

Thanks again to all, Mark.

[Olly 0]

Just pull the hands off and undo the dial feet clamps. It will be a plate or something that has risen up and jammed something up. Easy fix i think.

 

When you pull the hands use a little sheet of polythene so the hand puller doesn't scratch the hands.

[JSJ 0]

Olly has much more experience than me and for what it's worth I completely agree with him. You are so close to fixing this.

[Olly 0]

What ever you do don't start taking the movement apart. I've recently been sent some parts from someone and they tried to fix it them self. Let me put it this way. It didn't end well and i have parts on the way.

 

Just a word of warning.

[ShovelnTC 31]

What ever you do don't start taking the movement apart. I've recently been sent some parts from someone and they tried to fix it them self. Let me put it this way. It didn't end well and i have parts on the way.

 

Just a word of warning.

 

Don't worry mate I know my limitations, confident opening up and removing movement, hand removal and re-fitting but that's about where my comfort zone ends with this movement.

 

I feel I have gone about as far as I want to being this is a brand new $300+ watch, if it was an old beater then it would be a different story.

 

I've re-assembled the watch and am wearing it now and so far it hasn't missed a beat but I've only had it back together for a few hours so we''ll see how it goes.

[J!m 289]

Were you able to get the dial all the way against the movement? In your photo in post #25 the dial appears to not be flat against the movement.

 

I have seen that these sliding dial foot clamps are a bit crappy in that thy can be slid across the foot while not in intimate contact with the underside of the movement- thus allowing the dial to rise up, which it will, when the movement is case clamped into the case. Old Omega and Rolex mvements use a screw on the edge of the movement to capture the dial feet, which is MUCH more secure.

 

The dial MUST be tight against the movement; the dial foot clamps must be tight against the underside of the movement; the movement spacer must be tight around the movement and also tight under the dial, the movement clamps must be tight (and possibly bent) so the movement is tightly pressed against the dial under the rehaut.

 

There is room for "slop" in all these connection places, and if you are low on headspace for the hand stack, you can't afford any slop...

 

This appear to be an easy fix, without removing the hands or dial; however you must be sure the dial is as close/tight as posible against the movement, which I think is the root cause of the problem.

 

And those dial foot clamps are easily swung out with a screwdriver inside them, and twisted lightly. You may have to clamp the dial in place with plastic tweezers and watch paper, while keeping the clamp tight against the movement and swinging it back into locked position. This is easy to do if you have three or more small hands- the rest of us have to get creative...

 

I hope you have it sorted now!

[ShovelnTC 31]

OK first let me again thank everyone for your words of advise and encouragement with this problem.

 

I really had pretty much decided just to sell it off as a "repairer" but you have all kept me interested in getting it sorted.

 

To update what the situation is I have now had it re-assembled (without getting the dial flush) and as it seemed to running OK I wore it all day yesterday, during that time it didn't miss a beat, I then left it on the bedside table overnight and again didn't miss a beat, I then left it on the desk today and it is still running after around 10 hrs sitting on the desk, so all appears rosy except.............

 

last night whilst in bed I listened to the movement and there is a distinct change in mechanical sound for around 5 or 10 seconds every revolution of the second hand so there is definitely still an issue.

 

So I'm going to store it for a few days as it has worn me out a touch and will then consider the next move.

 

Cheers again to all who have offered advise, Mark.

[JSJ 0]

Really great that you have a working watch and your observation about its sound is very interesting.

 

What sort of time is it keeping?

[ShovelnTC 31]

Really great that you have a working watch and your observation about its sound is very interesting.

 

What sort of time is it keeping?

 

It has now been running for around 34 hours since I set it last and has gained around 13 seconds. The timeographer shot from my QC pics shows +13 per day so this makes sense.

 

Now don't laugh but I'll try to explain the noise, imagine if you will that the sounds I am hearing are two distinct sounds a "tick" and a "bonk", not in a sequence but rather very close together so if you separate them you get both a tick,tick,tick & a bonk,bonk,bonk, so when listening I can hear both distinctly but once every revolution of the second hand the bonk,bonk,bonk, disappears for 5 or ten seconds leaving only the tick,tick,tick then returns.

 

I'm thinking that this may be when the second hand touches the crystal (if that is what is happening) that the sound gets grounded or muffled such as when you tap on a wine glass with a fork or spoon with your finger on the glass the "ring" disappears.

 

So perhaps when I adjusted the second hand it has reduced the pressure that the hand exerts on the crystal and due to the reduced drag now allows the movement to function without stopping the second hand but is still enough to be causing some drag thus producing the sound variation.

 

Make any sense???

[J!m 289]

Could be... I would still want to see everything assembled tight to the movement, re-set the hands (look from all angles with at leeast a 5X loupe to be sure the hands are perfect) and try again.

 

The sound change could be crap on the third wheel for example, but it is interesting that it still runs a touch fast, as-delivered rate if I am understanding you correctly.

 

If the 'drag' was enough to shut it down, and now it is less, but still there, I would expect it to gain; i.e be more than 13 seconds fast as it was initially received. That leads me to think the issue is internal, and a change in tone usually indicates a change in load, which is often from crap on something as it comes around. Since it is directly related to the seconds (although could be contaminant on other gears as well) that tells me it is probably on the third wheel (with the seconds pinion sticking out of it).

 

Can you SEE any variation in the seconds hand movement during this tone change?

 

Finally I would ncase it and listen closely to it and seee if the sound change is there- that would disprove your theory of the seconds hand hitting the crystal for sure (or not).

[ShovelnTC 31]

J!m and all who have replied,

 

Thanks for your continued interest.

 

I still haven't been back into it but have worn it for the last three days and apart from the sound difference still being present it has run flawlessly and gained around 45 secs so is still around what was originally tested.

 

I will open it up again and check hand stack alignment and when I am eventually fully confident that I understand the movement to spacer to case fitment I will attempt to get the dial properly fitted. At this stage the way I am seeing things if I get the dial closer to the movement spacer then the movement itself will actually be a touch closer to the crystal which may bring the original perceived problem back.

 

I see what you mean about the drag likely causing a loss of time and removal of the drag should have lessened that loss.

 

No there is no visible change in the second hand movement when in the "noise change" zone.

 

I will also check for the noise with the movement out of the case but I'm not sure if I will be able to hear it as so far the only time I can hear it is when holding the watch tightly to my ear when in the quietness of late night in bed.

 

Cheers, Mark.

[ShovelnTC 31]

OK for anyone still n ot bored with this thread I have again pulled the beast apart.

 

First I took the advise of trying to get the movement/dial completely flattend against the movement ring but when trying to loosen the dial feet holders the feet locks either are hard up against the inner part of the movement or are pressing against the inner part of the movement ring so either way I couldn't get either of them to move.

 

Unlike what I have been advised the movement is definately NOT loose within the ring so apart from putting LOTS of force on the movement to ring I couldn't get any change in that aspect of the possible problem.

 

So being as I couldn't do anything there I then went back to assuming the issue was still the second hand touching the crystal.

 

So when looking at the clearance between the hour hand and the 12 O'clock indice I found no room for adjusting the hour hand downwards so next I looked at the hour hand to minute hand and found the tiniest bit of wiggle room but really negligible but gave it a very slight tweak to get the minute hand sitting a poofteenth closer to the hour hand and then finally when looking at the second to minute hand clearance I had yet again a tiny amount of available clearance so tweaked the tip of the second hand downward from the point of the small lumed square to the tip thus getting the tip of the second hand a squinteenth more down away from the crystal, I believe that is where it was touching due to the rounded crystal.

 

So after properly cleaning the inside of the crystal and removing the big speck of dust that I left there last time I greased the gasket and stem face (these BB's don't have any stem o rings just a rubber face) and buttoned it back up.

 

After giving it some shakes it fired up and I set the time.

 

I then listened as best as I could being that it is daytime with much higher ambient noise but from what I can hear all is as it should be with a uniform sound for the full rotation of the dial.

 

I'll have a better listen tonight in bed when the ambient noise is much lower and confirm but it appears that I may have this bugger sorted!

 

Ye F'n Ha!

[SSTEEL 0]

Congrats!

[JSJ 0]

Well done that man! Good result.

[twofake 0]

Good work Mark and an interesting read.

[ShovelnTC 31]

Thanks to all for your assistance.

 

I can now report that all is as it should be and working perfectly.

 

The only thing I can add to it is that I just had a minor collision while riding my motorcycle and the bike has sustained a few grand damage, the car I hit has also sustained a few grand damage but the Black Bay is fine and just as well I wear it in my left wrist as my right took some of the brunt of the stack and is somewhat sore and swollen so if wearing on the right wrist I suspect it would have been damaged. Luckily no serious injuries to any involved although I suspect I will be kicking back inside for a few days.

 

Thanks again to all who assisted and contributed to this thread.

 

Cheers, Mark.