For those who think the clone movement is as good as the Swiss

[Brightlight 0]

Received a brand new watch for 'warranty' repair. It had two problems, 1) Date not clicking over properly, and 2) Watch kept stopping and now will not run at all, feels like something loose inside. Every picture tells a story -

 

 

 

[greg_r 82]

Yup - typical shoddy QC/assembly.

 

The main reason that I always recommend caution to people planning to buy reps with 'swiss' movements is that a lot of the time they'll still get the clone - or they'll get a s/h swiss movement in just as bad a state...

 

If you're building a watch yourself - or buying from one of the few dealers that can be trusted to provide a new swiss movement (Robert, for instance), then it's another matter - Swiss all the way.

[dingle 57]

thanks BL......you have just made a decision for me

[KBH 7]

But the question still remains. Is a properly serviced clone a decent movement. I say yes!

 

Bristles, pubic hairs, dandruff etc. can just as easily fall into a Swiss movement when it's being assembled in some 3rd world sweatshop.

[greg_r 82]

But the question still remains. Is a properly serviced clone a decent movement. I say yes!

 

Bristles, pubic hairs, dandruff etc. can just as easily fall into a Swiss movement when it's being assembled in some 3rd world sweatshop.

 

+1 Exactly

[Luthier 1]

But the question still remains. Is a properly serviced clone a decent movement. I say yes!

 

Bristles, pubic hairs, dandruff etc. can just as easily fall into a Swiss movement when it's being assembled in some 3rd world sweatshop.

 

+1.

I have 4-5 watches with clones, all works perfectly.

I think it's a hit or miss game.

 

Had dinner with Mary tonight, she said factories having problems with many absolutely dry A7750 movements....

[Brightlight 0]

But the question still remains. Is a properly serviced clone a decent movement. I say yes!

 

Bristles, pubic hairs, dandruff etc. can just as easily fall into a Swiss movement when it's being assembled in some 3rd world sweatshop.

 

Yes, that's what I believe too KBH, but the more I see the more I believe clone movements should be serviced sooner rather than later!

[greg_r 82]

But the question still remains. Is a properly serviced clone a decent movement. I say yes!

 

Bristles, pubic hairs, dandruff etc. can just as easily fall into a Swiss movement when it's being assembled in some 3rd world sweatshop.

 

Yes, that's what I believe too KBH, but the more I see the more I believe clone movements should be serviced sooner rather than later!

 

 

Agreed - which reminds me, I need to get you to have a go at my SOH at some point.

 

Maybe after my US trip next month

[offshore 0]

BL, I had a watch in a week or so back, with a Chinese movt, brand new...hairspring was a birds nest.

So I ordered a new movement, ...at $25 it was the cheaper option.

Installed on arrival, it initially fired up, and was delivered to the owner.

He was back in a few days, with it not working.

On close inspection after disassembly, I found the new movement had two spare screws floating around inside,....not loose screws...spare screws...and they weren't even from that model...different screws! WTF.

They were duly removed and its running fine.

However the labour for all this, far exceeded the value of the initial purchase...and that was with a sizeable discount from normal repair costs.

I really am getting to the stage of knocking back any work on these, they are more trouble than enough, and theres still not a decent supply of any parts.

Whilst the ETA option may be initially higher, its got some level of reliability and consistency.(and parts!)

O/S

[KBH 7]

As a side note: I just had the Eta movement in my SSD quit yesterday after 3 years of almost daily use. In my feeble attempt to fix it I fear I killed the movement permanently. I just dropped a clone movement in that I had left over and it's back up and running like a champ.

[Brightlight 0]

BL, I had a watch in a week or so back, with a Chinese movt, brand new...hairspring was a birds nest.

So I ordered a new movement, ...at $25 it was the cheaper option.

Installed on arrival, it initially fired up, and was delivered to the owner.

He was back in a few days, with it not working.

On close inspection after disassembly, I found the new movement had two spare screws floating around inside,....not loose screws...spare screws...and they weren't even from that model...different screws! WTF.

They were duly removed and its running fine.

However the labour for all this, far exceeded the value of the initial purchase...and that was with a sizeable discount from normal repair costs.

I really am getting to the stage of knocking back any work on these, they are more trouble than enough, and theres still not a decent supply of any parts.

Whilst the ETA option may be initially higher, its got some level of reliability and consistency.(and parts!)

O/S

 

Tell me about it! I had a 21J DG2813 from Cousins, fitted to a customer's watch, all working fine, sent it off, two days after he got it it stopped working, won't wind, probably broken mainspring though I haven't stripped it yet. Contacted Cousins to be told -

 

" I am sorry but unfortunately I am unable to exchange your movement as we have a non returns policy on these parts. We have had this policy in place for over 3 years now and whilst it is clearly not popular, the policy is as imposed on us by our suppliers who state that movements are not supplied faulty."

 

What a joke! The Chinese saying movements are not supplied faulty. So I have to cover the damn warranty for 15% discount on the item, two lots of postage, two lots of labour, can't ask the customer to pay for the second lot............. I'll get my own damn 2813's from China in future!

 

At least most of the parts for the clone ETAs are available and interchangeable with Swiss.

[pollux1 3]

Given a choice, and it can be CONFIRMED, such as buying from Robert or Mary I reckon Swiss ETA is the sensible way to go then.

[greg_r 82]

BL, I had a watch in a week or so back, with a Chinese movt, brand new...hairspring was a birds nest.

So I ordered a new movement, ...at $25 it was the cheaper option.

Installed on arrival, it initially fired up, and was delivered to the owner.

He was back in a few days, with it not working.

On close inspection after disassembly, I found the new movement had two spare screws floating around inside,....not loose screws...spare screws...and they weren't even from that model...different screws! WTF.

They were duly removed and its running fine.

However the labour for all this, far exceeded the value of the initial purchase...and that was with a sizeable discount from normal repair costs.

I really am getting to the stage of knocking back any work on these, they are more trouble than enough, and theres still not a decent supply of any parts.

Whilst the ETA option may be initially higher, its got some level of reliability and consistency.(and parts!)

O/S

 

Tell me about it! I had a 21J DG2813 from Cousins, fitted to a customer's watch, all working fine, sent it off, two days after he got it it stopped working, won't wind, probably broken mainspring though I haven't stripped it yet. Contacted Cousins to be told -

 

" I am sorry but unfortunately I am unable to exchange your movement as we have a non returns policy on these parts. We have had this policy in place for over 3 years now and whilst it is clearly not popular, the policy is as imposed on us by our suppliers who state that movements are not supplied faulty."

 

What a joke! The Chinese saying movements are not supplied faulty. So I have to cover the damn warranty for 15% discount on the item, two lots of postage, two lots of labour, can't ask the customer to pay for the second lot............. I'll get my own damn 2813's from China in future!

 

At least most of the parts for the clone ETAs are available and interchangeable with Swiss.

 

 

Cousins' policy is not enforceable under the sale of goods act or the UK distance selling regulations. Their agreement with their suppliers is their problem - they are not legally entitled to pass that limitation on to their customer. Frankly, if a company tried that with me, they'd find themselves talking to trading standards pretty f'ing shortly after...

 

They are required by law to make good, replace or refund as the goods are clearly not fit for purpose.

[Brightlight 0]

BL, I had a watch in a week or so back, with a Chinese movt, brand new...hairspring was a birds nest.

So I ordered a new movement, ...at $25 it was the cheaper option.

Installed on arrival, it initially fired up, and was delivered to the owner.

He was back in a few days, with it not working.

On close inspection after disassembly, I found the new movement had two spare screws floating around inside,....not loose screws...spare screws...and they weren't even from that model...different screws! WTF.

They were duly removed and its running fine.

However the labour for all this, far exceeded the value of the initial purchase...and that was with a sizeable discount from normal repair costs.

I really am getting to the stage of knocking back any work on these, they are more trouble than enough, and theres still not a decent supply of any parts.

Whilst the ETA option may be initially higher, its got some level of reliability and consistency.(and parts!)

O/S

 

Tell me about it! I had a 21J DG2813 from Cousins, fitted to a customer's watch, all working fine, sent it off, two days after he got it it stopped working, won't wind, probably broken mainspring though I haven't stripped it yet. Contacted Cousins to be told -

 

" I am sorry but unfortunately I am unable to exchange your movement as we have a non returns policy on these parts. We have had this policy in place for over 3 years now and whilst it is clearly not popular, the policy is as imposed on us by our suppliers who state that movements are not supplied faulty."

 

What a joke! The Chinese saying movements are not supplied faulty. So I have to cover the damn warranty for 15% discount on the item, two lots of postage, two lots of labour, can't ask the customer to pay for the second lot............. I'll get my own damn 2813's from China in future!

 

At least most of the parts for the clone ETAs are available and interchangeable with Swiss.

 

 

Cousins' policy is not enforceable under the sale of goods act or the UK distance selling regulations. Their agreement with their suppliers is their problem - they are not legally entitled to pass that limitation on to their customer. Frankly, if a company tried that with me, they'd find themselves talking to trading standards pretty f'ing shortly after...

 

They are required by law to make good, replace or refund as the goods are clearly not fit for purpose.

 

They are supplying wholesale to the trade so this doesn't apply Greg. You actually have to tick a box on the website order to confirm you are not a retail customer.

[offshore 0]

Don't disagree G, however be it Trading Standards, or Fair Trading here, the repairer becomes "piggy in the middle" in all this.

I waste hours, (unpaid), sourcing bits....in fact I probably spend as much time at the computer as at the work bench.

No one pays for that time.... I have a gen Speedmaster here right now, I'm trying to locate the correct bezel and the "right" pusher for it...I probably have 4 hours in this now....client rang today asking where we were at.... I will take it to the shop tomorrow and return it, as we aren't getting the answers needed. My return ...zero $$

Same goes for Chinese repairs, one spends hours rummaging through broken bits, contacting other repairers, just to try and salvage parts for a bloody $25 movement.

So I'm certainly not going to start a free for all with a government dept on my clients behalf, over a broken movement, whether its ethically correct or not.

 

Whilst some of the old school watchmakers refuse to work on reps, citing moral obligations to the industry...its my bet that they have all at some stage played with them, and have reached the same conclusion...they can't be reimbursed for their time!

 

This statement may not go down well with some replica owners, however it is a truth.

 

It is difficult to get someone who has only paid $100 or $200 for their watch, to pay another $200 for its servicing.

Amazingly, the owner of a $2000+ watch has no issue with shelling out twice that amount to service his pride and joy.

Why are there so many broken reps around the place?, its not that parts are impossible to obtain, the truth is that they are uneconomical to repair...its cheaper to just buy another watch.

I would throw 10 tired old reps a week in the bin, or hand them back to their owners, every week, solely because the cost to repair was in excess of their worth.

Whilst it may be fine for a hobbyist to put countless hours into modding or repairing broken toys, the repairer doesn't have that luxury. And to cap it off, the majority of watches returned for ongoing repair, "under warranty", just happen to be Chinese powered as well.

The "warranty" mostly is for a totally unrelated matter, however once a repairer has touched one, he inherits the owner for life...or until the owner gets so pissed at what he sees as excessive bills, that he takes his business elsewhere, (mostly to the great relief of the repairer)

So why take them on in the first place?

There is plenty of work available on genuine, quality watches, whose owners are happy to pay the piper, and where parts are readily available.

 

Just a few random musings from the other side of the bench.

O/S

[KBH 7]

Don't disagree G, however be it Trading Standards, or Fair Trading here, the repairer becomes "piggy in the middle" in all this.

I waste hours, (unpaid), sourcing bits....in fact I probably spend as much time at the computer as at the work bench.

No one pays for that time.... I have a gen Speedmaster here right now, I'm trying to locate the correct bezel and the "right" pusher for it...I probably have 4 hours in this now....client rang today asking where we were at.... I will take it to the shop tomorrow and return it, as we aren't getting the answers needed. My return ...zero $$

Same goes for Chinese repairs, one spends hours rummaging through broken bits, contacting other repairers, just to try and salvage parts for a bloody $25 movement.

So I'm certainly not going to start a free for all with a government dept on my clients behalf, over a broken movement, whether its ethically correct or not.

 

Whilst some of the old school watchmakers refuse to work on reps, citing moral obligations to the industry...its my bet that they have all at some stage played with them, and have reached the same conclusion...they can't be reimbursed for their time!

 

This statement may not go down well with some replica owners, however it is a truth.

 

It is difficult to get someone who has only paid $100 or $200 for their watch, to pay another $200 for its servicing.

Amazingly, the owner of a $2000+ watch has no issue with shelling out twice that amount to service his pride and joy.

Why are there so many broken reps around the place?, its not that parts are impossible to obtain, the truth is that they are uneconomical to repair...its cheaper to just buy another watch.

I would throw 10 tired old reps a week in the bin, or hand them back to their owners, every week, solely because the cost to repair was in excess of their worth.

Whilst it may be fine for a hobbyist to put countless hours into modding or repairing broken toys, the repairer doesn't have that luxury. And to cap it off, the majority of watches returned for ongoing repair, "under warranty", just happen to be Chinese powered as well.

The "warranty" mostly is for a totally unrelated matter, however once a repairer has touched one, he inherits the owner for life...or until the owner gets so pissed at what he sees as excessive bills, that he takes his business elsewhere, (mostly to the great relief of the repairer)

So why take them on in the first place?

There is plenty of work available on genuine, quality watches, whose owners are happy to pay the piper, and where parts are readily available.

 

Just a few random musings from the other side of the bench.

O/S

 

 

That's exactly why I stopped building computers for friends. They always seemed to expect a lifetime warranty.

[Tressles61 0]

But the question still remains. Is a properly serviced clone a decent movement. I say yes!

 

Bristles, pubic hairs, dandruff etc. can just as easily fall into a Swiss movement when it's being assembled in some 3rd world sweatshop.

 

Yes, that's what I believe too KBH, but the more I see the more I believe clone movements should be serviced sooner rather than later!

 

 

Agreed - which reminds me, I need to get you to have a go at my SOH at some point.

 

Maybe after my US trip next month

 

 

Greg - you coming to southern california by any chance?

[68 Bullit 0]

But the question still remains. Is a properly serviced clone a decent movement. I say yes!

 

Bristles, pubic hairs, dandruff etc. can just as easily fall into a Swiss movement when it's being assembled in some 3rd world sweatshop.

 

Yes, that's what I believe too KBH, but the more I see the more I believe clone movements should be serviced sooner rather than later!

 

 

Agreed - which reminds me, I need to get you to have a go at my SOH at some point.

 

Maybe after my US trip next month

 

 

Greg - you coming to southern california by any chance?

 

Yes Greg

Are you coming to Southern California?

[Akira 0]

Open a perfectly working clone ETA just for checking?

Or waiting till anything seems wrong?

[Brightlight 0]

Open a perfectly working clone ETA just for checking?

Or waiting till anything seems wrong?

 

Perfectly working? Or a time bomb? Your decision.

[Star 0]

I think some might be under the misconception that most of these reps are assembled in a sterile manufacturing facility, or visions of this off the beaten path/clandestine warehouse of super reps production-where in actuality they are put together in somebodies uncles garage attic (or in this case- garage attic's bathroom) Yes the case and parts are in fact 'produced' but assembled is another story entirely. Ask your dealer if they have a 'watch guy' or someone with some basic knowledge of timepieces to ensure it was assembled properly (which at best, is no plastic brush pieces present in the works and that the seal is good and the back is screwed on tight)...beyond that-it's a roll of the dice on QC. One of the resons these are called REPS

 

@ offshore...what about your old motto of 'labour of love?'...maybe it was just boats

 

 

Timm

[Brightlight 0]

I think some might be under the misconception that most of these reps are assembled in a sterile manufacturing facility, or visions of this off the beaten path/clandestine warehouse of super reps production-where in actuality they are put together in somebodies uncles garage attic (or in this case- garage attic's bathroom) Yes the case and parts are in fact 'produced' but assembled is another story entirely. Ask your dealer if they have a 'watch guy' or someone with some basic knowledge of timepieces to ensure it was assembled properly (which at best, is no plastic brush pieces present in the works and that the seal is good and the back is screwed on tight)...beyond that-it's a roll of the dice on QC. One of the resons these are called REPS

 

@ offshore...what about your old motto of 'labour of love?'...maybe it was just boats

 

 

Timm

 

Problem is to ensure it was assembled properly, you first have to strip it down. I don't think any dealer is going to get his 'watch guy' to do that. Apart from loose or missing screws in new clone movements, which is unforgiveable, there is the issue of dirt and lack of oil, which is more understandable and probably more serious in the longer term, to be addressed. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with the clone movements that a service won't usually fix.

[offshore 0]

@ offshore...what about your old motto of 'labour of love?'...maybe it was just boats

Timm

 

Timm,

Good to see you around...Yeh it is a labour of love, whilst you are a hobbyist.

However as soon as it starts paying the bills, one tends to move the goal posts a bit, and see things from a different perspective.

When you sit at a bench from 7am to 4pm , as I have done today, its sorta nice to come home with a couple of $$ in the pocket.

And sure, boats were about winning, this is about eating!

O/S

[greg_r 82]

They are supplying wholesale to the trade so this doesn't apply Greg. You actually have to tick a box on the website order to confirm you are not a retail customer.

 

 

Ah - my bad. Didn't realise that. Bastards

[greg_r 82]

 

 

Agreed - which reminds me, I need to get you to have a go at my SOH at some point.

 

Maybe after my US trip next month

 

 

Greg - you coming to southern california by any chance?

 

Yes Greg

Are you coming to Southern California?

 

hehe - no 'fraid not. I'm going to be in South Carolina, spending thanksgiving with family

 

G