KW PAM 382 V3 and ZF PAM 382 V2 Comparison

[mysterio 18]

Well, this particular feud has brewed from when both factories released their respective offerings of the much awaited PAM382 Luminor 1950 Submersible "Bronzo". A lot of comparisons have been done like PAM 3 8 2 - Pictorial review versus gen. Part 1. (by jakob) and ZF Pam382 vs. KW Pam382 mini review side by side....... (by NCChef) as well as the individual version pictorials.

 

There is nothing new in what I will present here. It just so happens that I finally got a Bronzo (yay!) and as luck and the TDs would have it, I got one of each. I actually forgot to take a photo of what the improvement of the ZF V2 and the KW V3 was about, which is the movement. I will most likely get a photo or two later. So at first everything will be about all the other features of the watches.

 

First off, the material debate. There has been talk of whether the material of the PAM382, particularly the KW V3 is really bronze or it's simply brass or even copper. I posted a picture of what the two watches looked like but apparently it wasn't conclusive. So what I did first was to wash both watches only in warm water and then toothpaste (the gel type with no fancy beads) with some elbow grease. No lemon juice, acetone nor baking soda as I simply was too lazy to look for them (assuming I even had some at the house, we have local lemon but it's too small and to get enough juice to dilute in a solution would entail a lot of squeezing and..never mind). For most purposes, until I get around to it, this is just simple and non-intensive cleaning.

 

So after dabbing both in dry paper towels to get the water out, here they are (unless otherwise specified, it's KW V3 on the left and ZF v2 on the right): On photos that are oriented vertically, KW is the first photo with ZF on the second.

Another angle:

 

 

ZF V2 at the top, KW V3 at the bottom:

 

KW V3 at the top, ZF V2 at the bottom:

 

From where I'm sitting, there isn't any difference in the case color between the KW V3 and the ZF V2 versions of the PAM382. Maybe some have better eyesight than me or have their eyes calibrated for Pantone accurate color sensitivity.

 

Bottom side:

 

Crown Guard side:

KW looks to be better as gen pics show the lever to be centered on the crown guard. ZF looks to be a bit higher.

 

Other side of the crown guard:

 

Chamfering on the bezel:

The chamfering on the bezel is evident on the ZF (on the right), minimal if any on the KW.

 

Side view:

 

Lume pearl:

KW looks too puffed, but the ZF is too flat.

 

Crown Guard lever:

Both are shaped the same, they differ in the centering of the lever.

 

Crown Guard shape:

CG pin on the KW is not polished, on the ZF it's not flush (both incorrect but both fixable). Inner cutout is a bit better on the ZF but not by much.

 

Bezel dots:

Both polished, with the ZF having a slight discolor (might need the deep cleaning)

 

Crown guard chamfering on bottom side:

KW has it, ZF doesn't.

 

Cannon pinion:

Now this is strange. The ZF seems to have a wall surrounding the CP like the Noob PAM364. It's not noticeable from a wrist's distance but it's there.

 

Bottom side of the crown guard:

 

Bezel marker engraving:

 

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UPDATE 1:

Color comparison of fully cleaned Bronzos:

So I had time during lunch to do the full monty wash. First I performed the full cleaning on the KW PAM382 V3 and compared to the partially cleaned ZF PAM382 V2. KW on the strap, ZF head only.

 

Then I performed the same process on the ZF version and compared again. KW using the same strap, ZF now on the green strap.

 

 

Movement, case back and lume shots are on the second post.

Edited October 19, 2014 by mysterio

[mysterio 18]

Second part of this review. By the way, as a disclaimer, the comments I make are based on my observations. Feel free to have your own opinion. You may just as well be right.

 

MOVEMENT

Differences in the movement is already analyzed by ALE. Just providing photographic references.

 

Side by side, this time left side is ZF V2, right side is KW V3 unless otherwise specified:

 

Movement shot

Color of font seems to be closer in ZF but the thickness is closer in KW.

 

Light reflection

KW's finishing seems to be better than the one on the ZF offering. Still just decorative plates but for the aesthetics, smooth even brushing is evident on the KW PAM.

 

Case Back

Took shots all around the caseback to compare the depth and sharpness of the engravings on the Titanium caseback. By the way, crystal quality is the same.

Again, ZFactory V2 on the left and KW V3 on the right, on vertically arranged photos, ZFactory V2 at the top, KW V3 at the bottom.

 

Thickness is closer on ZF, depth is closer on KW

 

0 on serial number is too fat on the ZF, too tall on the KW.

 

Size of the OP/BB text is closer on the KW

 

OP logo is better on the KW

 

The fish is better on the ZF (tail should be narrower than body, on the KW they are almost equal) as well as the 300m text. The S on CASE is better on the KW though, the one on the ZF seems to be lopsided, at least on my sample. The A on both are inaccurate as the bar should be higher up.

 

 

Lume shots:

This is what PAMs are known for so let's see them lume shots.

 

Methodology:

I do not have any UV light so I used a simple LED flashlight. As I wanted to maximize the intensity, I placed the light source near the lume dots. A side effect of this is I could not charge all of the lume areas at one time so there was a slight delay while I charged the rest of the other areas. Charge time is around 2 seconds per 1/8 of the dial so 16 seconds per full dial shot.

 

Z-Factory V2 on the left, KW V3 on the right

Yes, I know. Probably, your first reaction would be "Are you sure you lumed both watches equally?" and the answer would be yes, I am, I did the lume test a few times actually, just to make sure it wasn't a fault of the flashlight or how I held it close to the dial, etc. Also it is important to note that the subdial on the ZF PAM had lume, but it wasn't as strong as on the other markers. The lume pip also seems to be brighter and retain the charge much longer. On the KW, lume strength was the same all around.

 

In fact, I took a photo of the KW first and then charged the ZF and took a photo of it. That's when I saw the difference and thought to take a shot of the pair (so the KW by this time already had a discharge time of around 30-40 seconds)

 

I then charge both the same way (KW then ZF) then took a shot of the set.

KW is clearly even and brighter although the ZF lume pip is the brightest of them all.

 

Took one again after around 10 seconds (you can see it in the elapsed time on the dials).

 

One last repeat of the lume test. 16 seconds each dial, KW then ZF.

 

Clearly, the KW PAM382 V3 lume is far better than the one of the ZF PAM382 V2, except for the lume pip. It might be stronger lume or larger lume area (in the case of the dots, at least). I cannot recall any lume shots of the earlier versions so I cannot tell if they improved, remained the same or gotten worse.

 

Whew, that was quite a bit of work. Enjoy!

 

I hope this thread helps some decide which version they like better, which flaws are acceptable and ultimately which one to buy.

Edited October 19, 2014 by mysterio

[ALE7575 24]

Thanks mysterio this is a useful, interesting and awaited review

Buyers will be able to get a lot of info from your thread in order to make a decision about the available versions of this rep

 

Leaving aside bronze material matter (I'm still trying to get an official chemical analysis of KW material), the main flaws are IMO:

 

KW- polished chamfered edge of the bezel, it is very narrow bad defined and bad polished (ZFac is also narrower and less polished than gen but it is overall better). Uneven pearl shape (hit and miss)

 

ZFac- Ugly and weird CP. Inaccurate shape (horizontal and vertical sections) of bezel knurling. Few chamfered CG corners. Uneven lume colours. Very flat pearl shape. Read below comments about lume , caseback and movement

 

Mysterio’s lume test results were unexpected for me

I knew uncharged lume colour were more uniform and correct in KW. ZFac PAM 382 has always had uneven lume colour in hands, dial markers and subdial markers

But I actually didn't expect KW charged lume was better than ZFac. You test shows clearly this matter

I was also a bit surprised by the differences in caseback inscriptions, they are also better in KW

Regarding movements. I'm going to remember my previous comments and pics about them, already published in other posts:

 

New decorations V2 based on A7750 movements, with non inverted layout, called ZP9000-V2 from ZFac and KP9000-V2 from KW

 

Both new decorations are based in the same idea:

- Keep the balance cock a little hidden under the escapement wheel and its support and the rest of parts involved in this zone of the watch. The real balance cock is always the same but remains hidden under the decoration.

- Makers are including a completely false and decorative balance cock starting in the opposite side and getting the same orientation as the gen balance cock

- Above mentioned allows to get a bridges decoration with the same layout as gen and with the inscriptions placed in the same way and orientation.

- Maker cannot avoid to have the balance wheel @11 since they are always using an A7750 as movement base. Whereas gen balance wheel is placed @7

 

Therefore we get a more accurate layout of the movement and inscriptions but completely rotated, because the balance wheel is placed in a different placement (that is teh same in previous decorations

 

What are the differences between ZFac ( ZP900-V2 ) and KW ( KP9000-V2 ) new non inverted decorations ??

 

- ZFac uses a false new decoration of balance cock with similar shape to previous versions but correctly orientated. As you can see in below pics this balance cock decoration is really inaccurate.

- KW is using a false new decoration of balance cock, much more accurate as you can see in below pics

- The "hole" in the balance wheel zone is bigger in gen in comparison with the reps. But, as you can see in the pics KW decoration plates have a shape more gen-like and leave a "hole" a bit more accurate than ZFac

- In order to hide the real balance cock ZFac has reduced this bridge almost to a bar. We don't know yet if this drastic reduction could affect the working of the movement, since the balance cock is supporting the upper tip of the balance wheel and with that reduction could transfer to the balance wheel more easily vibrations and external movements or impacts, affecting the overall running. We would need some time to know about this matter and get a wise opinion about from the future owner's comments.

 

- KW seems not to have reduced the real balance cock (or has made a very little reduction) thinking of the escapement wheel and its support, together with other parts placed in this zone, would be able to hidden or dissimulate enough the real balance cock. IMO this is a correct decision, because the real balance cock is barely seen under the escapemen wheel and the rest of the parts involved. I thinks it is no necessary to reduce the real balance cock and to take risks of movement working, because the real balance cock remain dissimulated enough in KW movement.

- Inscriptions on bridges, besides the placement and correct orientation, seem better than in previous versions. Just to say that ZFac inscriptions are nicer than KW, because KW are clearly thicker than gen. In this regard ZFac is superior to KW (maybe only in this regard)

 

Bellow are showed New V2 movements ZP9000-V2 and KP9000-V2 in comparison with the gen. The first pic shows the movements in the same alignment (sse the crowns)

Second pics show the rep movement rotated to match the position of the balance wheel

 

GEN P.9000 IN COMPARISON WITH DECORATED ZFac ZP9000-V2 WITH THE WATCHES IN THE SAME POSITION. See aligned crowns

 

GEN P.9000 IN COMPARISON WITH DECORATED KW KP9000-V2 WITH THE WATCHES IN THE SAME POSITION. See aligned crowns

 

GEN P.9000 IN COMPARISON WITH DECORATED ZFac ZP9000 V2 WITH THE WATCHES ROTATED TO GET MATCHING. See the crowns in different positions

 

GEN P.9000 IN COMPARISON WITH DECORATED KW KP9000 V2 WITH THE WATCHES ROTATED TO GET MATCHING. See the crowns in different positions

 

IMO, leaving aside the inscriptions on decoration plates (really good in ZFAc), KW is actually more accurate and, most likely, more reliable.

We will see the working of both movements in the future

 

 

 

We can conclude that KW has clearly worse upper external polished edge of the bezel (that really is a pity in KW version). KW chamfered is almost non existent and polishing is bad

We can see also that inscriptions on movement are clearly more accurate in ZFac version, KW are thicker and they even show some inconsistencies in quality. Although the finish of the decoration brideges is better in KW.

 

 

I have to admit that the edge of KW watch bothers me a lot, I don't understand why KW has no improved this edge, it would have been very easy this improvement.

Regarding bronze material matter,we don-t know the truth, but both watches have similar colour in practice although we can detect some little differences side by side.

 

Therefore, leaving aside the two issues above mentioned (edge of the bezel and movement inscriptions) KW is an overall superior version IMO.

 

Anyway, TWO great First Class reps and you will not go wrong either with Zfac or with KW

 

ALE

[GoW13 19]

Wow, just wow!!!

This is simply amazing and really helpful. Especially for noobs like me

 

Thanks both for your work and advice!

[ALE7575 24]

 

Thanks both for your work and advice!

 

 

The real work is from mysterio, mine one is just an opinion !!

 

ALE

[Teddyfigo 4]

Is it the pics or just me ? Looking at the pics , I see that ZF datewheel are closer to the dial where Kw are abit sunken ?

[ALE7575 24]

Is it the pics or just me ? Looking at the pics , I see that ZF datewheel are closer to the dial where Kw are abit sunken ?

 

There is no reason for that

The same base movement and the same dimensions

 

ALE

[plankton 1]

pm

[mysterio 18]

pm

 

Replied.

[machiavegli 6]

It's threads like this that make me proud to be a member. (1) mysterio and ALE you are obsessed and (2) it's obsessed people like you that make awesome possible.

 

Double my VIP charge and I'd pay it happily

 

-Mach

[ALE7575 24]

It's threads like this that make me proud to be a member. (1) mysterio and ALE you are obsessed and (2) it's obsessed people like you that make awesome possible.

 

Double my VIP charge and I'd pay it happily

 

-Mach

 

(1)Mach you are very kind

(2)People like you make the job worthwhile

 

Thanks

ALE

[Paparolf 45]

Great read guys and a massive help to anyone thinking of buying. Top job.

[mattheis 39]

Great comparisons and thanks for all the time spent, you sold me on the KW. I've been patiently waiting for the 382 for a long time. I know it has been in conversation elsewhere...somewhere, but what are the correct hand colors, yellow gold as seen on the ZF or the rose gold of the KW? Hard to tell in the official rendered photos on the site, and it's not mentioned in the tech specs.

 

Also debated, should the TM engravings on the CG patina consistently with the Case/CG or stay clean bronze as on the ZF? Gen pics seem to vary.

[UmpaHimself 222]

Very nice work. How long did that fucking take you?!

[Boycie 472]

Excellent reading mysterio and ALE, hard to pick a winner, but KW get the nod from me.........thanks again for this post.

[mysterio 18]

Very nice work. How long did that fucking take you?!

 

Took me 3 fooking days man. But all inrerspersed with work. Imagine the looks that I got submerging the Bronzos in the local lime juice, and this was during lunch.

[ALE7575 24]

3 days !! mysterio this is a record of speed to get such a review!

 

I remember the review of Luminor cases in cooperation with Klockis taking more three months

http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?showtopic=56032&pid=932572&st=0entry932572

Or my review about PAMs 505 which took more than a month

http://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php?t=179812

 

LOL

 

ALE

 

 

[mysterio 18]

LOL ALE. The scale of my review is much smaller than the sweeping review of Luminor cases. I do recognize the importance of this review that's why I did it. There wasn't a watch to watch comparison yet, especially for the latest versions of the PAM382 and they were relatively just newly released so there was a void that needed to be filled.

[ALE7575 24]

Anyway a record my friend

 

ALE

[jcagara08 31]

ALE7575

 

So in conclusion, KW V3 is Top notch! =)

[rogdog 0]

Thanks for the great review ! I really like the look of this watch but I can't pull of the 47mm on my wrists :(

[norrie 1]

Mysterio, are the tops of the cases on each of these bushed in the same direction as the bezel is? Like this gen is.

 

Edited November 12, 2014 by norrie

[peteyjones 0]

I am currently awaiting my third-try QC pics for the KW watch... is it just me, or do the 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock markers always seem slightly off-kilter? Is it distortion from the crystal dome? I am perplexed...

[samhouston 0]

what an awesome review !! great job !! Does anyone have a review on the actual bronze material of these watches ? are these actually true bronze ?

[ALE7575 24]

what an awesome review !! great job !! Does anyone have a review on the actual bronze material of these watches ? are these actually true bronze ?

 

 

Yes

KW PAM382 Bronze material – Official Chemical Analysis (the definitive answer) ******

http://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/203008-KW-PAM382-Bronze-material-%96-Official-Chemical-Analysis-(the-definitive-answer)-******

http://www.rwg.bz/board/index.php?showtopic=91901

http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=243565&highlight=chemical+analysis

 

ALE