ALE7575 24 Posted April 3, 2016 This thread is an extract from PAM Reference GUIDE of PAM 087 "Reference PAM REVIEW-GUIDE" - Replica Search, Identification, Evaluation & Selection. https://www.replica-...n-amp-Selection This thread will give you all information, data and links about the PAM 087 reps pulished in the main forums and the comments and evaluations made by myself after reading and study the reps, all available information and all the pics and QC pics published and received by e-mail and PM. This watch is specially difficult to be reviewed by comparisons due to the gen shows many variations between series and batches, because it is more hand made finished than new watches and because the Tritium lume dial ages differently depending on many factors. As usually, the final evaluation that I have given, although considered after many hours of study and trying to be an average of general consensus, could have, unavoidably, some subjective component. Anyway, with all comments and links included in this thread you can get info enough to make your own Evaluation more adapted to your taste. People could easily get many different opinions regarding the final conclusions. Owner opinions are usually based in their own reps (one or two units) and sometimes are biased to their reps. As above commented I have tried to be as impartial as possible and to get and average of the general opinions and myself one. PAM 087 – Overview and Evaluation of all reps – April 2016 EVALUATIONS LOW GRADE REP (C-series previous to 2105 w/A-7750 ) (**) SUPER REP Bordering lower status (H maker F-series w/A-7750 ) The first Panerai Submersible 1000m was the PAM 064, originally released for the C-series (2000) as a Unique Special Edition of 500 pcs. Leaving aside the big Egiziano, the PAM 064 was the biggest and nastiest Panerai so far, with 5mm thick sapphire crystal and a Helium release value, black dial with silver seconds sub-dial @9 and date window @3, this watch is known (with good reason) as "La Bomba" (The Bomb) in Italy. http://www.paneraiso...Special_93.html Much to the consternation of collectors, who thought they were buying a unique edition, promptly appeared the PAM 087 D-series (2001) with a flat blue dial, an engraving 1000m on the crown-lock, and few other changes. The 1000m is a Submersible, with most design hints taken from the vintage Egiziano, with Luminor type 44mm case, skeleton hands, small seconds @9, date under a cyclops @3, unidirectional bezel and Tritium ivory- yellowish lume. It differs from the regular old Submersible in that it has thicker (5mm) crystal, a Helium release valve, and a heavier case. The crystal is also slightly smaller than the regular old Subs, because the bezel is wider. The movement is the regular automatic OPIII for the gen and the A7750 for the rep. From the 2003 F-series onwards (last series was 2005 H-series) the dial of the PAM 87 got a darker blue, and stick markers, which had a blue contour embossed from the dial surface, got a chromed contour and a bigger length going until the contour of the dial, Helium valve lost the He engraving and even in last series is brushed instead of polished, however the reference was not changed. The gen PAM 243 1000m replaced the now discontinued PAM 087 1000m Submersible. The PAM 087 was affectionately referred to as Blue “La Bomba” or “the tuna can” because of its sheer weight and thickness. The PAM 243 1950 case feels like it has a more distributed an even-weighted feel as compared to the PAM 087. More gen different versions info and reviews: http://www.network54...rent%2Bversions Gen pics from shoes https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yibbxfpxh...cdsZ6XY1a?dl=0 See this interesting build by Grimlocktime of a Fantasy Franken Blue “La Bomba” made from a gen PAM 087 dial and a rep case PAM 243 Noob: http://www.replica-w...935#post1920935 by Grimlocktime -PAM 087 C-series A-7750 Low grade rep Before 2015 there was a rep C-series of PAM 087. That rep was fitted with A7750 and was a Low grade rep without interest: inaccurate dial, case, crystal, Date wheel, wrong caseback from PAM 064….This Low grade rep is no longer available. More info here: http://www.repgeek.c...ghlight=pam+087 by jmattuch http://www.repgeek.c...ghlight=pam+087 by COLDI http://www.repgeek.c...ghlight=pam+087 by JohnDorian -PAM 087 H maker F-series w/ A-7750 November 2015- H maker released a rep PAM 087 F-series fitted with A7750 with decorated rotor. This was a very awaited rep because there was a lot of demand of this nice blue-dialed SUB watch with Tritium lume. This rep is a very good release from H maker which has made a very good job, regarding finish and gen-like appearance and even in many aspects of accuracy, although some lacks as we will see below CASE: Case shape is overall accurate, without obvious differences of dimensions and profiles, just the lugs are a bit different as you can see in below comparison pics. Gen lugs are thinner and their flat base is smaller than rep base. Gen lugs look lighter tan rep. Lug holes position is accurate enough. PAM 087 LUG AND CASE SHAPE - GEN–H MAKER COMPARISON Gen finish is very good but it has not the uniformity of new PAM watches and it looks more “hand made” and more inconsistent between batches than reps. Rep finish looks more uniform and “machined”. Maybe gen is better in the space between lugs and lug contours (mainly in the zone between the upper part of the lugs and the cushion shape edge). Brushing is accurate with some gens because there are a lot of variations between gens. Gen is overall more rounded and all edges of the case are nicely rounded getting a soft appearance. Rep case, although is very nicely made looks beautiful but sharper and crisp, somehow a bit inaccurate. You can see these differences of sharpness in below comparison pic. Anyway, very good job from H maker regarding the case. PAM 087 ROUNDED EDGES OF THE CASE - GEN–H MAKER COMPARISON Brobert from RG has made some interesting modds in this regard, getting nice results as you can see in below post: http://www.repgeek.c...l=1#post2779956 by Brobert BEZEL: Rep bezel shape is overall accurate with nice and accurate knurling but rougher brushing than gen. Gen bezel usually has more fine and uniform brushing than rep, but the rep is good enough. Rep bezel knurling is not as clean as gen but is accurate in practice at real size and looks nice. Brobert from RG has made some interesting modds in this regard, getting nice results as you can see in below post: http://www.repgeek.c...l=1#post2779956 by Brobert The outer upper edge of the rep bezel is not as rounded as gen and the transition edge between the vertical surface of the bezel and the rounded edge is smoother in gen, rep usually shows a little corner between the rounded edge and the vertical surface. Bezel dots and markers are overall accurate and without noticeable differences. Sometimes rep numeral bezel markers are placed a bit off center. Black stick markers on bezel from 12 to 3 hrs. are nice and overall accurate. Being a bit picky the thick stick marker @12 is shorter in rep, rep markers are less crisp and a tad thinner than gen. Anyway, at real size markers are nicely made, accurate and have gen-like appearance. Rep pearl has accurate rim and shape for a F-series. Regarding the pearl colour, it is not possible to talk about differences and accuracy because not only the gen PAM 087 has different colours of pearls depending on the material used by Panerai, but it depends a lot on the angle of view and the lighting. In this regard read below post from Grimlocktime: https://www.replica-...l=1#post2542305 More comments about the pearl from projectologist here: http://www.repgeek.c...l=1#post2741298 by projectologist Therefore we can consider that rep pearl is accurate in practice. CROWN & CROWN-GUARD Crown and crown tube are accurate although they are less polished than gen as usually Gen Crown Guard has more rounded edges in general than rep, it is like in the case, even the gen CG lever has more rounded edges. See below pic PAM 087 VIEW FROM 3 hrs. AND CROWN GUARD - GEN–H MAKER COMPARISON Obviously old gen PAMs didn’t have the impressive finish quality of new ones. That affects also the inner corners of the CG. The finish of H maker rep is even better, but that makes the rep CG somehow inaccurate. I have seen many gen pics from different sources and what I see is that the inner CG corners of the gen are not either squared or rounded, they are originally “chamfered”. In the same way as PAM 064, PAM 056 and PAM 061. H maker has already proved the capacity to get this “chamfered” inner corners, because H maker has already got this feature in the reps of PAM 056 and 061. GEN PAM 087 CHAMFERED INNER CORNERS OF CG Due to the little inconsistency of gen finish in those old models we can find gens from perfectly “chamfered” inner corners to slightly rounded corners. The reason is well explained for PolonusTM is his nice review: http://www.repgeek.c...ad.php?t=262619 by PolonusTM https://www.replica-...os-and-comments by PolonusTM Below some gen pics to shown these differences. On many of them you can see perfectly the “chamfered” above commented. GEN PAM 087 DIFFERENT INNER CORNERS OF CG More comments about the CG from projectologist here: http://www.repgeek.c...l=1#post2741202 by projectologist Another issue that I have found reviewing the H maker PAM 087 is a misalignment between the inner sides of the CG hollow. You can see this misalignment in below pic, observing the differences between the orange correctly aligned lines and the blue misaligned lines. The misalignment is produced either at the top or at the bottom. Most likely these misalignments are produced because the CG doesn’t fit correctly the mid-case being a little open. When you tighten the CG with the screws, the CG takes the shape of the mid-case reducing the angle of the inner corners and producing those misalignments of the inner sides. H MAKER REP PAM 087 MISALIGNMENT BETWEEN INNER SIDES OF CROWN GUARD HOLLOW CG lever shape is very accurate either in the part tightening the crown or the tip, but the gen edges are much more rounded. 1000m engraving has accurate fonts but, like on caseback engravings, is shallower than gen. See view from 3hrs. comparison pic above in this Section. CG pin is nicely finished but is flatter than gen without the little rounded edges that gen has. Therefore H maker CG, which has squared corners and edges, is very nicely finished, as above commented, even better than gen, but somehow it is inaccurate. Rep CG has accurate lever and correct CG pin but with sharper edges. There is no reason to downgrade this nice rep due to the little inaccuracies of the nice CG which indeed is even better than gen. CASEBACK: Rep caseback is also less soft than gen, all the edges are sharper, and even the transition edge between the conical shape and the flat central circle is much sharper than gen, which presents more rounded transition. The central flat circle is smaller in gen, maybe due to the rounded transition that reduces the size. Leaving aside the OP 6541 the BB serial number and the production number, which have some little differences, all engravings have accurate fonts and layout in comparison with gen F-series onwards. The main difference is that gen engravings are way deeper and this is noticeable. We can see above commented in below comparison pic PAM 087 CASEBACK - GEN–H MAKER COMPARISON TO BE CONTINUED IN NEXT POST Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALE7575 24 Posted April 3, 2016 DIAL LAYOUT: H maker dial layout is really good with accurate placements and sizes. Only the PANERAI Automatic inscription is placed a bit lower in the rep. DIAL INSCRIPTIONS: Dial white inscriptions: stick minute markers, LUMINOR SUBMERSIBLE, 1000m, PANERAI Automatic are accurate in colour and thickness. The main flaws are in “R” font, as usual in H maker, which has different font and straight end of the “R” tail whereas gen “R” tail is pointy. Below pic shows the differences. There are also some differences in T SWISS MADE T and in Automatic but they are few noticeable. It is a pity the inaccurate “R”, because the inscriptions, aside this matter, are really good. Below pic illustrates above commented differences. DIAL NUMERAL MARKERS: Fonts are accurate in “12” and “6”, just “6” is a bit thicker in rep (see the size of the “6” inner circle in below comparison pic.). Regarding lume application gen has a smooth surface sausage lume shape of the numerals, with yellowish ochre colour, circled with a much lighter contour whereas rep has the same contour no lighter but with the same colour as the sausage lume. Some times rep has rougher lume material of sausage aplication than gen, but this is few noticeable in real size. DIAL RECTANGULAR STICK MARKERS: Rep rectangular STICK markers are very nicely made, even with better finish and appearance than gen, but due to that have some inaccuracies. In effect, dial stick markers rim contour are thinner and much crisper and defined in rep. Gen contours are thicker and much more rounded, they look embossed whereas rep contours look machined. Rep are nicer but unfortunately inaccurate. Sticks lume application is clearly convex in gen with a marked dome, but rep sticks lume is completely flat and without relief. See the differences in below comparison pic. PAM 087 DIAL DIFFERENCES - GEN–H MAKER COMPARISON LUME COLOURS AND APPLICATION: There is no reason to strictly judge lume in a rep of a Tritium lume gen watch, because Tritium lume will have lost the power in an old gen watch and the colour uncharged will really have undergone very variable changes from yellowish ivory to orange or brownish depending on original lume material, environment conditions and how old is the watch. Rep lume power is good enough to satisfy owners. Rep stick markers colour is a tad more orange than numerals which are more yellow or ochre. Rep hands lume is more or less like the numerals. In the gen overall lume colour is less marked or lighter than rep. Gen stick markers lume is also more orange than numerals but the hands are usually lighter. But we have to bear in mind that, as above commented, the aging colour of a Tritium lume has not fixed rules and we could get any combination of colours in an old gen. Gen hands lume is usually lighter than numeral markers, this maybe is produced because, at least in last series, PANERAI is using Luminova instead of Tritium lume for the hands, in order to avoid a premature and ugly corrosion. In this way a lighter colour of rep hands lume would be interesting to get more accuracy. We can say that rep lume colours are accurate, matching a very aged Tritium dial, just in the limit of darkness and aging. Maybe hands should be a bit lighter, for above commented reasons, and in this way some modders are working with this reps. Interesting comments about the colours here: https://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/274886-087-is-finally-out-****-QC-pics-allowed-****?p=2542305&viewfull=1#post2542305 by Grimlocktime DATE WINDOW AND DATE WHEEL: Date window and date fonts are accurate. No worries about this matter. SECONDS SUBDIAL @9: Gen subdial is very recessed, even more recessed than rep subdial, and in last series (F,G, and H) usually shows clear concentric circles. Some gens with few textured dial have no visible circles. But H maker rep is copying highly textured dials. Regarding concentric circles see comments and comparison pics below in the section of dial texture. White dots and lume sticks on subdial are accurate in H maker rep. See below comments and pics of gen and reps subdials DIAL SURFACE TEXTURE: This is a controversial matter on this rep. But it is not so important since gens present also a lot of variations even in the same series. Below you can see three gen PAM 087 dial surfaces of F-series (like H maker rep). GEN PAM 087 SMOOTH TEXTURE SURFACE DIAL – Gen from Shoes This dial of shoes’s gen has smooth texture almost invisible under nuked eye and subdial has no concentric circles. GEN PAM 087 MEDIUM TEXTURE SURFACE DIAL – Gen for sale at Watchuwant Above dial presents a medium texture and the concentric circles are already visible GEN PAM 087 REGULAR TEXTURE SURFACE DIAL – Gen from Grimlocktime Grimlocktime PAM 087 gen shows a noticeable textured dial and the concentric circles are clearly visible and evident H maker rep dial surface texture is even more marked and evident than above gens. Rep texture is less uniform than gen and is usually a bit rougher. The rep dial texture many times reaches and cover the subdial, getting dirty, partially erasing and even covering the concentric circles. We can see in below rep pics some examples of H maker dial texture and concentric circles from nice texture and defined circles to rough texture and blurred or erased subdial circles: H MAKER REP PAM 087 TEXTURE SURFACE DIAL AND SUBDIAL CONCENTRIC CIRCLES Anyway we can say that rep dial texture looks nice and only under some lighting conditions it could seem very high, excessive or rough. I would say it is accurate enough and beautiful. CRYSTAL: Gen has a very thick 5mm crystal. Rep crystal looks also as thick as gen and the Cyclops is accurate in size but with more evident “frozen halo” than gen. Magnification is also like gen. AR seems OK but I had desired a better clarity in my own rep. Overall accurate and nice crystal. HANDS and CANNON PINION Hands are accurate with a bit dark lume, as above commented. The circle of fixation of the hands to the CP is not as flat as gen, it is a bit concave. PAM 087 HANDS AND CANNON PINION - GEN–H MAKER COMPARISON CP is very good: accurate, flat and polished, with a bit rounded edges and flush. Rep CP is actually better than it is showed in the pic, it looks more polished and flatter. It looks really good in real thing and at real size, even under the loupe. Both hands and CP, aside the lume colour, are at real size really good and accurate. No worries in this regard. MOVEMENT: Rep movement is an A7750 without chrono functions and decorated rotor with blue engravings. Gen is a OPIII based in the same Valjoux 7750, without chrono functions and with rotor and bridges decorated with PANERAI PANERAI engravings and golden inscriptions The rep movement is reliable, and more without the chrono functions, but the decoration is inaccurate and we can see the evident differences in below pic. Since the caseback is solid this inaccuracy is not very important and the rep movement A7750 is reliable enough. PAM 087 MOVEMENT - GEN–H MAKER COMPARISON STRAP: I usually don’t talk about rep straps, because I consider that people change the rep strap following their own taste. But in this case rep strap is a dark grey with ivory-yellow stitching (matching aged Tritium type lume) made of a lizard type leather which IMO match perfectly the watch and looks really nice. I have kept the rep strap in my PAM 087 and I’m really happy with the combo. CONCLUSIONS AND EVALUATION: H maker has really done a good job with this PAM 087 F-series. There are some obvious inaccuracies: overall sharper edges, finish of the bezel brushing, “R” of dial inscriptions, surrounds of dial rectangular stick lumed markers, depth of caseback and lever (1000m) engravings… But overall look is impressive and the rep has a very strong gen-like appearance. Only by a close inspection and knowing the gen you can tell the inaccuracies. Wear this nice rep is really a pleasure, even with the rep strap, and it is a true eye-catching. Bear in mind that it is very difficult to copy an old gen watch, with a lot of parts hand finished and with a textured blue dial with aged Tritium type lume. The rep is made by machining and hand finish is used only in the necessary points, that gives to the rep a “perfectly” machined and sharp appearance different from the smoother and hand made look of some gen parts. PAM 087 H maker is not at all the most accurate rep of PAM SUBs but it is one of the most beautiful and eye-catching. We can consider PAM 087 F-series H maker a nice Super rep bordering a lower status due to some obvious inaccuracies. Anyway it is a must in a good PAM rep collection. Additional info here: Nice reviews by PolonusTM http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=262619 by PolonusTM https://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/278073-H-factory-PAM-087F-photos-and-comments by PolonusTM Nice pictorial and review from mike00 http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=262983&p=2746140#post2746140 by mike00 https://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/279909-PAM087-Submersible-1000m-***pictorial-review***?p=2571078#post2571078 by mike00 More info here: https://www.replica-watch.info/vb/showthread.php/274886-087-is-finally-out by COLDI http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=248805 by mike00 http://www.repgeek.com/showthread.php?t=262609&p=2742991#post2742991 by denisegold PAM 087 REPLICA links: -PAM 087 C-series A-7750 Low grade rep No longer available -PAM 087 H maker F-series w/ A-7750 (**)http://puretime01.com/pam087-f-luminer-submersible-blue-dial-on-gray-leather-strap-a7750.html# (**)http://www.toro888.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=1878 (**)http://www.intime.co/panerai/2482-pam087-h-maker-best-edition-blue-dial-on-lizard-strap-a7750.html (**)http://www.ttw8488.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=352&products_id=14169 (**)http://www.pf-818.com/-p-18591.html GEN links: http://www.paneraisource.com/watch_details/Contemporary_28.html http://www.paneristi.com/reference/vendome/1000m.html http://forum.tz-uk.com/showthread.php?87569-I-think-I-m-done& http://uhrforum.de/panerai-pam-087-la-bomba-t120584 http://cda.chronomania.net/forum_entry.php?id=125646 https://www.watchuwant.com/watches/panerai-pam-87-g-luminor-submersible-1000m-la-bamba-44mm-stainless-steel-discontinued-model http://www.rolexforums.com/showthread.php?t=194483 http://www.network54.com/Forum/353391/thread/1144944500/Pam%2B087%2B-%2Bdifferent%2Bversions Thanks for reading ALE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ALE7575 24 Posted April 3, 2016 Sorry, in the title I have extended the update until 2106... LOL.. I hope some Mod is so kind to edit the year of the title to 2016 Thanks ALE Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markeym3 2 Posted April 3, 2016 as always a comprehensive assessment ,, great pics ,, I enjoy these write ups thanks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
