A Moment About Movements

[GC 4,543]

Before I start I just want to say that I'm not looking to beat a dead horse , instead I would just like to gather my fellow collector's experiences and knowledge on the topic of rep movements and maybe share some of my experiences. I know there are a million and one topics started on all the different fora, but strangely they all seem to lead to a similar end i.e. who knows, who cares, this is the tell, no it's not... never anything for sure, which is strange because it's only a movt.

 

The second reason I'm starting this thread is because today is my day off and I was bored , so take this post with a grain of salt because I doubt we will come to any definitive solution either which way.

 

I fancy myself a bit of a movement junkie, I made it one of my goals to not only collect watches but also different movements, that is before I started to collect reps. Since entering the world of reps that has become slightly more limited since the typical movements found are the high beat A7750, ETA & Clone 2836 & 2824 and then the low beat 2813s and also some Seagull movts.

 

 

I'm thinking to make this tread more manageable regarding info, and since we all agree that the A7750 & 2813 are what they say they are, we could just focus on the ETA & Clone 2824 & 2836 as this is the typical high beat movt offered in many of the mid to higher priced so called "best/super/ultimate" watches. And befor we spend extra money, we as informed consumers should know what we are really getting, because once we know we have the option to choose to pay more or not.

 

Now before we start, we should at least define the terms i.e ETA (sold as Swiss) & Clone (sold as Asian), lets not mix things up by using terms such as ETA Clone or Clone ETA since we all know a clone is of an ETA.

 

Here is info I have read:

 

Now I have read that the ETA (sold as Swiss) & Clone (sold as Asian) movts are give or take basically the same i.e. sweep, accuracy, longevity.

 

I have also read that ETA (sold as Swiss) are either really ETA or Clones and seeing as most dealers & watchsmiths can't even tell the difference I guess it's no wonder we have so much difficulty with identification. There are dealers that differentiate in their sales posts, which I appreciate, but only the few who I would believe because they also receive the info from the factories and I'm sure the factories couldn't care less if its either or as long as it's profitable.

 

Another bit of info I have come across is they might actually both be true ETA movts. But ETA (sold as Swiss) are fully assembled & Clones are ebauches assembled in Asia...hmmmmmm

 

On the flip side I have read that ETA (sold as Swiss) are also assembled in Asia but the Clone (sold as Asian) are a hodgepodge of mixed ETA parts, so both are assembled in Asia.

 

Of course recently, with this ETA vs Clone identification , there have been so called tells i.e. "look at the shock system" if i has 1 indent it is Asian if it has 3 it's probably Swiss but/or/maybe it could be Asian...(WTF?)

 

There is also the other so called tell i.e. "look at the gear with the holes", if it has less holes it's a Clone if it has more it's an ETA or vice versa.

 

Or the tell about, "look at the rotor" if the markings are raised it's a Clone if they are engraved it's an ETA.

 

 

So those are the identifiers/tells/conclusions I have come across in several threads.

 

And here are my experiences:

 

I purchased a watch with an advertised ETA and it is flawless: smooth winding, precise click/snap to date change and correct alignment in window.

 

I also purchased a watch with an advertised Clone: friction when winding, less precise date change (no click/snap) and slightly floating alignment in window.

 

Both movts look exactly the same to the naked eye.

 

ETA has three indents on shock system, Clone only has one.

 

ETA Rotor has no saw teeth around center, Clone has saw teeth around center on rotor.

 

Both ETA & Clone movt have engraved wording on rotor.

 

Both movts keep great time & both have the same sweep smoothness.

 

ETA movt winds buttery smooth, Clone movt winds with a scratchy/friction feel.

 

ETA movt clicks/snaps when date changes, Clone flops when date changes.

 

ETA date wheel lines up in window, Clone floats a little with wrist movt.

 

So based solely on these two movts, I would say there is a difference between an ETA & a Clone... I think

 

 

And here are the pics of the ETA & Clone

 

ETA Rotor

 

Clone Rotor

 

 

ETA Shock System

 

Clone Shock System

 

 

ETA Rotor Engraving

 

Clone Rotor Engraving

 

 

ETA Stamping of 2836-2

 

Clone Stamping of 2836-2

 

 

ETA Stamping of "ETA" logo (notice the "DM" between "ETA" & "2836-2)

 

Clone Stamping of "ETA" logo (notice no DM between "ETA" & "2836-2")

 

 

ETA Stamping of serial number (NOT found on Clone movt)

 

 

What say you, your experiences and feedback are much appreciated.

 

btw: I think this might be my first actual quality post that adds something to the forum :woo:

 

thanks for reading!

GC

[greg_r 84]

Interesting comparison. I'll leave it to the experts to comment on most of this, but I would say that the tactile differences between ETA and clone (i.e. friction when winding, precision of date snap) could well be a QC issue.

[GC 4,543]

Interesting comparison. I'll leave it to the experts to comment on most of this, but I would say that the tactile differences between ETA and clone (i.e. friction when winding, precision of date snap) could well be a QC issue.

 

That is definitely a possibility regarding the tactile differences.

 

Although I still believe they are in fact two different movts based on the pics.

[sconehead 5]

RA has looked into the matter closely and has made observations on the issue. The simple fact that the dealers offer genuine ETA at a premium and clone ETA at a discount, to me at least, means that the different movements exist...

[GC 4,543]

RA has looked into the matter closely and has made observations on the issue. The simple fact that the dealers offer genuine ETA at a premium and clone ETA at a discount, to me at least, means that the different movements exist...

 

Thank you sconehead, I appreciate you commenting because I have followed

a few threads where you have also discussed movts.

 

I also agree with your conclusion, I too believe them to be different movts.

 

Would you venture to say weather you believe the ETA to be made from Gen ETA parts

and the Clone from Clone ETA parts, assuming both are assembled in Asia?

[Silverspeed 10]

I too think that there is generally a difference between the clone and gen ETA movements. Normally I prefer the ETA version if the rep is is a very good version. The difference is mostly in the way you mentioned, smoother winding, datechange exactly at 12 and often the rotor is more silent. Sweep and accuracy are very similar between the ETA and clones.

 

Problem is that there are some many variables. Refurbished gen ETA's that are dirty and in dire need of a service or hybrid ETA versions with various parts from clones and/or very poor QC. I would think that with 99% of the clone 2824/2836's you'll get a new movement.....wich would be a hell of a lot better then some tired and dirty second hand ETA....so it's kind of a lotery wether or not a ETA is better than a clone.

 

In the end a real Swiss ETA would be a brand new factory sealed 2824/2836 movement....and we all know the rep factories don't use these.

[Luthier 1]

One thing I can confirm for sure: being THERE a few times, visiting THEIR watchsmiths and factory offices, I saw by my own eyes big boxes with ETA movements, with Swiss address on the boxes, and these guys told me- factories buy ETAs by tons, because it's relatively cheaper, and because they heard a rumours, that ETA will stop to sell movements to the 3rd parties. Also I saw boxes with chinese made ETAs, a.k.a. "clones".

Both movements visibly different. Even plating. By the way, signs on ETA rotors are stamped, not engraved, like on clones.

And we had the thread with comparison of ETAs and clones, with plenty of pictures of gears with "many holes" and with "less holes", and many more differences. Somebody with better memory should post the link.

[KBH 7]

Great thread!

 

Another thing I've heard is that the "gold" Eta movements are made for the low end and are made in Asian factories. I've heard they manufacture in the Phillipines and probably in China. I don't know if this is true but the silver movements seem to be a much higher grade. Here's a picture of one of my DJ movements with a Swiss made 2824-2 that came in a factory sealed package. We all know that Eta come in 3 different grades, the lowest being what is used in our reps. I believe this is the 2nd grade, where the highest is the COSC certified.

 

 

Not all Asian movements are "gold" though. Here's a Asian clone in silver:

 

 

Confusing things even more is the Sellita 28xx movements. Are they Swiss or Asian? Sellita is a Swiss company that manufactures in China and who originally made movements, or parts, for Eta, before they moved all their production in house. Now Sellita makes clones of the more popular Eta movements that are no longer protected by patents. The few Sellita movements I've seen have all been silver.

 

Here's some pictures of the D4M UPO from his group buy. This is the one that really shed some light on the confusion because here we have a clone with the "many hole" winding gears, which was supposed to be the big tell. Lot's of people who bought the Eta UPO ended up with this clone movement instead. And paid way to much money for it.

 

 

To me, the first thing I look at is the "+" symbol over the regulator. Most clones have this almost hanging over the edge of the bridge. Eta's do not.

 

Next is the silver circular ring around the shock system. The Eta movements are slightly smaller in width than on most of the clone movements. I'm not sure if this is universally true but it's something to look at. Another tell is the large silver gear above the winding spring. This is brushed finish on the Eta and is more polished on the clone movements.

 

 

Hope this adds a little more to the knowledge base. Feel free to add or challenge any of my assumptions. We're all here to learn.

[sconehead 5]

To be honest, I personally identify what I beleive to be a clone movement by the single cutout for the novodiac shock assembly spring, it's the first thing I look for. To date I haven't seen this on known gen ETA's used in Tissots etc. If anyone can find a pic to debunk my assumption please post it. Until then I will identify clone movements by this tell...GC mentions it above and did a close up shot for those who don't know what I'm on about in pics 3 and 4...

[GC 4,543]

@KBH, thanks for adding all that info!

 

Regarding the Sellita movts, I don't think they can be considered "Clones" because they are

a legitimate movt company and produce a drop in replacement for ETA movts due to the shortages

that were expected with the news that ETA was not going to sell ebauches to non-swatch group members.

Just for info sake, I own two Sellita movts that are gold, both SW200s and both from a few years ago.

 

My theory regarding the ETA vs Clone movt is this: (not that it really matters because both wind up in Rep watches...lol)

 

The ETA (sold as Swiss) movts are genuine "ETA" parts manufactured and/or assembled in Asia

 

The Clone (sold as Asian) movts are possibly genuine but most likely clone (or a mix) of parts manufactured and/or assembled in Asia.

 

 

@ sconehead, I'm with you on identifier of the single cutout for the novodiac shock assembly spring. Up till now

it's the easiest and most strait forward to differentiate, and like you say, until it is debunked I'm stick'n with it.

[GC 4,543]

I too think that there is generally a difference between the clone and gen ETA movements. Normally I prefer the ETA version if the rep is is a very good version. The difference is mostly in the way you mentioned, smoother winding, datechange exactly at 12 and often the rotor is more silent. Sweep and accuracy are very similar between the ETA and clones.

 

In the end a real Swiss ETA would be a brand new factory sealed 2824/2836 movement....and we all know the rep factories don't use these.

 

Thanks SS for your experiences with the Clone movt, good to know my experiences are on par with others

that have more experience and quantity than me.

 

Regarding a true SWISS MADE ETA, I also don't believe that we find these in our reps, but the ETA (sold as Swiss) movts we find I believe are gen parts manufactured and/or assembled in Asia by ETA (which in all truth is the next best thing imo).

 

 

One thing I can confirm for sure: being THERE a few times, visiting THEIR watchsmiths and factory offices, I saw by my own eyes big boxes with ETA movements, with Swiss address on the boxes, and these guys told me- factories buy ETAs by tons, because it's relatively cheaper, and because they heard a rumours, that ETA will stop to sell movements to the 3rd parties. Also I saw boxes with chinese made ETAs, a.k.a. "clones".

Both movements visibly different. Even plating. By the way, signs on ETA rotors are stamped, not engraved, like on clones.

And we had the thread with comparison of ETAs and clones, with plenty of pictures of gears with "many holes" and with "less holes", and many more differences. Somebody with better memory should post the link.

 

Thanks Luthier, it's always nice to get info from someone who has seen first hand, and has knowledge regarding the factories. The info about Swiss Made ETAs and Chinese Made ETAs is very interesting, it might explain the differences we see between ETA vs Clone. But I will tend to be more skeptical and just hope that the ETA (sold as Swiss) movts are gen parts and are manufactured and/or assembled in Asia by ETA.

[RolexAddict 1]

Good infos and close pics Curcio,

 

about what you wrote :

Regarding a true SWISS MADE ETA, I also don't believe that we find these in our reps, but the ETA (sold as Swiss) movts we find I believe are gen parts manufactured and/or assembled in Asia by ETA (which in all truth is the next best thing imo).

 

I join you for this,

 

I have to admit that all members experiences, comments and reflexions here are interesting and arguments proving that 2 movements exist are there.

 

My concern, I will keep in my mind -that's just me- what I wrote last year : ETA is ETA. And mainly with the same doubt :

For what reasons they stamp/engrave the ETA logo and movements type/ref. on plates ? To fool buyers ? Or : Chinese have since a long time produced parts and/or complete movements for ETA.

 

7750 clones for exemple, are sterile, not stamped ETA.

 

Ralph Lauren clothes are made in Malaysia, Indonesia and China. May be a day one clever guy will proclame "I sell authentic Ralph Lauren shirts made in USA, look here, the sleeve knobs have 4 holes, Chinese have only 3"

 

O.K. I admit, there are 2 movements.

But, in this case, we could figure than considering these ETA stamped clones, we have clones in our reps since a long time, since before this Swiss/clones story started on rep forums. As these questions exist only on rep watch boards. Also I have bought in a little watch parts shop ETA movements parts. I asked the man who sells me parts if he heard about Asian countries making fake eta movements. He was laughing and told me "I don't know, but of course lot of labeled -Swiss- watch movements components are not made in Switzerland, to expensive to produce".This is not an affirmation from me, just what I heard. Take it for cash or leave it.

 

On another way : recently, I have re assembled an ETA movement mixing parts from 2836-1, 2836-2, 2824-2 etc. To rebuilt a dead Beginmariner and put an ETA inside. I never had any difficult, all parts match perfectly. The watch is finished and the hybrid movement with cleaned and oiled parts indicates today + 8s/24H without any attentioned regulation. I have invented the Swinese authentic ETA 36-24/01

This means for me, that movements with Swiss or Chinese parts, or all mixed, have identical performances if serviced. And again I say its not very clean to argue "Swiss" to sell a used watch for much money

[Luthier 1]

"gen parts manufactured and/or assembled in Asia by ETA"...

Somebody, please, explain me what does it mean?

GENUINE parts... manufactured in Asia? Then it's not genuine.

By ETA? Since when ETA has a factory in Asia?

And if it's OEM, then how it's different from clones?

Once again - Chinese factories used to buy genuine ETA movements from Switzerland, in large numbers, for the price of around $55, and double the price, when install it in replicas.

Not anymore, because, as you all know, ETA stopped to sell movements to the 3rd parties.

[NFleischer 4,355]

good job guys. i also heard that eta made/assembled movements in asia.

i prefer to get 'gen' when possible. i agree- they feel better. i find it hard to tell, my 50 y.o. eyes

can't see all these little things. the big silver gear however is easy to spot when its shiney like the clones are.

 

a problem with many of the reps movt's (gen & clone); seems to be the winding stem and setting bridge. i have had many that break

not one gen swiss watch ever had this problem

[cybee 0]

Some have said that Seagull and other factories own the older Eta CNC machinery. Is that true???

[Silverspeed 10]

"gen parts manufactured and/or assembled in Asia by ETA"...

Somebody, please, explain me what does it mean?

GENUINE parts... manufactured in Asia? Then it's not genuine.

By ETA? Since when ETA has a factory in Asia?

And if it's OEM, then how it's different from clones?

Once again - Chinese factories used to buy genuine ETA movements from Switzerland, in large numbers, for the price of around $55, and double the price, when install it in replicas.

Not anymore, because, as you all know, ETA stopped to sell movements to the 3rd parties.

 

As far as I know ETA has factories in Asia since numerous years

genuine ETA parts manufactured in China are shipped to Swiss to

be assembled and therefore labelled Swiss Made

[NFleischer 4,355]

"gen parts manufactured and/or assembled in Asia by ETA"...

Somebody, please, explain me what does it mean?

GENUINE parts... manufactured in Asia? Then it's not genuine.

By ETA? Since when ETA has a factory in Asia?

And if it's OEM, then how it's different from clones?

Once again - Chinese factories used to buy genuine ETA movements from Switzerland, in large numbers, for the price of around $55, and double the price, when install it in replicas.

Not anymore, because, as you all know, ETA stopped to sell movements to the 3rd parties.

 

As far as I know ETA has factories in Asia since numerous years

genuine ETA parts manufactured in China are shipped to Swiss to

be assembled and therefore labelled Swiss Made

 

I also think several big companies like Rolex make some stuff in China (Hong Kong) and send it back to Switzerland for final assembly.

Swiss Made does not mean 100% made in Switzerland- something like 70-90% as far as I remember.

[KBH 7]

Some have said that Seagull and other factories own the older Eta CNC machinery. Is that true???

 

 

I have heard that also.

 

I have also heard and read many times that Eta produces movements in Asia. Almost definitely a factory in either Thailand or the Philippines

[RolexAddict 1]

I also think several big companies like Rolex make some stuff in China (Hong Kong) and send it back to Switzerland for final assembly.

Swiss Made does not mean 100% made in Switzerland- something like 70-90% as far as I remember.

 

you got it !

 

We have to make the difference between "the value of a product" and "the sell price of the same product"

 

I assume, I have good infos for this, a Rolex Submariner, out of factory has a 300 - 500 euros value. For a .... 5000 euros catalog price!!!!

Taxes, middle people, taxes again.... and you are fucked for 5000 euros... in France the government fuck you, sorry, tax you for 20%. VAT is 20% in France.

 

No one Swiss watch company today produces parts in Switzerland. Its unthinkable due to the cost of charges like social security, assurances, etc. for employees. Simply impossible.

[Silverspeed 10]

I also think several big companies like Rolex make some stuff in China (Hong Kong) and send it back to Switzerland for final assembly.

Swiss Made does not mean 100% made in Switzerland- something like 70-90% as far as I remember.

 

you got it !

 

We have to make the difference between "the value of a product" and "the sell price of the same product"

 

I assume, I have good infos for this, a Rolex Submariner, out of factory has a 300 - 500 euros value. For a .... 5000 euros catalog price!!!!

Taxes, middle people, taxes again.... and you are fucked for 5000 euros... in France the government fuck you, sorry, tax you for 20%. VAT is 20% in France.

 

No one Swiss watch company today produces parts in Switzerland. Its unthinkable due to the cost of charges like social security, assurances, etc. for employees. Simply impossible.

 

€300 - €500 for a Sub, yes maybe as material value but if you add all the marketing, advertising, RD costs that probably will be multiplied by 5

[cybee 0]

Some have said that Seagull and other factories own the older Eta CNC machinery. Is that true???

 

 

I have heard that also.

 

I have also heard and read many times that Eta produces movements in Asia. Almost definitely a factory in either Thailand or the Philippines

 

Yes this would make sense and considering they have stockpiled ebauches from recent years in addition to improving there own tooling abilities. No reason why they can't produce a movement that keeps us guessing

 

From Chinese Wiki: "ETA manufactures its mechanical movements only in Switzerland, however it has outsourced quartz movement and movement part manufacture to various Asian sites. Recently ETA have announced that they have ceased manufacturing in countries other than Switzerland, however quartz movements of identical design to those formerly produced by ETA Thailand continue to be made in Thailand, but without the ETA brand. From this we can infer that at least some of ETA's former foreign holdings continue to operate now as independent entities. To what extent they supply components to ETA in Switzerland is unknown"

[Luthier 1]

"gen parts manufactured and/or assembled in Asia by ETA"...

Somebody, please, explain me what does it mean?

GENUINE parts... manufactured in Asia? Then it's not genuine.

By ETA? Since when ETA has a factory in Asia?

And if it's OEM, then how it's different from clones?

Once again - Chinese factories used to buy genuine ETA movements from Switzerland, in large numbers, for the price of around $55, and double the price, when install it in replicas.

Not anymore, because, as you all know, ETA stopped to sell movements to the 3rd parties.

 

As far as I know ETA has factories in Asia since numerous years

genuine ETA parts manufactured in China are shipped to Swiss to

be assembled and therefore labelled Swiss Made

 

So, if I'll manufacture guitars in China, and then ship 'em to USA to put strings on... I can write - "MADE IN USA"???

I don't think so.

Also, I'd like to see the proof, that ETA has factories in China.

As far as I know, all real ETA made in Switzerland.

 

Oh, by the way... read this:

 

http://www.replica-watches-guide.com/forum...?showtopic=2010

[KBH 7]

"gen parts manufactured and/or assembled in Asia by ETA"...

Somebody, please, explain me what does it mean?

GENUINE parts... manufactured in Asia? Then it's not genuine.

By ETA? Since when ETA has a factory in Asia?

And if it's OEM, then how it's different from clones?

Once again - Chinese factories used to buy genuine ETA movements from Switzerland, in large numbers, for the price of around $55, and double the price, when install it in replicas.

Not anymore, because, as you all know, ETA stopped to sell movements to the 3rd parties.

 

As far as I know ETA has factories in Asia since numerous years

genuine ETA parts manufactured in China are shipped to Swiss to

be assembled and therefore labelled Swiss Made

 

So, if I'll manufacture guitars in China, and then ship 'em to USA to put strings on... I can write - "MADE IN USA"???

I don't think so.

Also, I'd like to see the proof, that ETA has factories in China.

As far as I know, all real ETA made in Switzerland.

 

Oh, by the way... read this:

 

http://www.replica-watches-guide.com/forum...?showtopic=2010

 

Only a certain percent of manufacturing has to be done is Switzerland. I think it's down to around 35 to 40% to be considered a Swiss watch. A lot of other watch makers have been complaining about this for years.

 

So, if you have a movement made in Thailand and have the watch assembled in Switzerland, it can still be a Swiss watch according to their laws. Particularly if they take that movement (ebauche) and do any more work on in Switzerland before installing it.

[GC 4,543]

So, if I'll manufacture guitars in China, and then ship 'em to USA to put strings on... I can write - "MADE IN USA"???

I don't think so.

Also, I'd like to see the proof, that ETA has factories in China.

As far as I know, all real ETA made in Switzerland.

 

Oh, by the way... read this:

 

http://www.replica-watches-guide.com/forum...?showtopic=2010

 

Luthier, the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry which makes the rules about if a movement can be labled/considered "Swiss" actually set these standards:

 

A Swiss watch movement

 

According to Section 2 OSM, a movement is considered to be Swiss if:

 

#1. it has been assembled in Switzerland;

#2. it has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland; and

#3. the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly.

 

 

And here are the ways around these laws

 

#1. Take movement manufactured/assembled to 99.9% in Asia and add rotor & screw in Switzerland

(because without rotor it is not considered assembled or complete, only 99.9%)

 

#2. Inspect movement in Switzerland.

 

#3. Pay $0.49 for the assembled Asian movement without rotor and say the rotor & screw cost $0.51

 

Abracadabra, now you have a Swiss Movt!

 

ETA does this, of course don't forget, it is by their factory, with their machinery that these movts are made, so tolerances & specs are the same to those manufactured/assembled in Switzerland.

[RolexAddict 1]

Luthier, the Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry which makes the rules about if a movement can be labled/considered "Swiss" actually set these standards:

 

A Swiss watch movement

 

According to Section 2 OSM, a movement is considered to be Swiss if:

 

#1. it has been assembled in Switzerland;

#2. it has been inspected by the manufacturer in Switzerland; and

#3. the components of Swiss manufacture account for at least 50 percent of the total value, without taking into account the cost of assembly.

 

 

And here are the ways around these laws

 

#1. Take movement manufactured/assembled to 99.9% in Asia and add rotor & screw in Switzerland

(because without rotor it is not considered assembled or complete, only 99.9%)

 

#2. Inspect movement in Switzerland.

 

#3. Pay $0.49 for the assembled Asian movement without rotor and say the rotor & screw cost $0.51

 

Abracadabra, now you have a Swiss Movt!

 

ETA does this, of course don't forget, it is by their factory, with their machinery that these movts are made with, so tolerances & specs are the same to those manufactured/assembled in Switzerland.

Bravo Cursio

 

Finally, I was not far from the reality in my topic last year here

Edited April 24, 2010 by RolexAddict