need advice before buying this watch

[myaz 3]

Nut house fever got a hold of me and I really really really like this UN rep.

I know, no accounting for taste. Go for it, I can take it.

 

The description of the watch says A21j with mineral glass. Which would put it in the $80- $120 range. As are so many other great looking watches.

 

-The Forum sticky on 21J movements says cheap but generally reliable.

-Ze french stickee says fairly poor and uneven reliability. One can hope they will last 12-18 months, rarely longer.

 

NOT GOOD.

Get all fired up over a watch only to have it crap out. What’s the point? But then that means passing up on so many other damn good looking watches that I'm lusting for. I'm not hellbent on having the "6" closed or hands just like the gen but I like for them to run. Hell, most brands have so many variations anyways that it’s getting harder to finger out a fantasy version... and I don’t care. I also like the idea of manual or automatic so I don't have to keep changing batteries in a growing collection.

 

So the questions are;

1) Is this UN rep, or any typical rep for that matter, usually/often/sometimes/never available with a better movements and if so, where do you look for them?

2) Is it a waste of trusted dealer time to ask if the rep you want is available with an upgraded movement or sapphire rather than mineral glass?

3) Is there a section for better watches? I see $200-300 watches bunched next to $80 all the time.

4) So I give in the urge and buy it anyways and it craps out. Is there a fix for it at that point because the watch still looks so damn good? Only I’m crying.

Please tell me you guys process this and what you look for in a movement as I will soak it in like a sponge. Thanks

 

 

[narikaa 129]

If you like it buy it

 

 

Stop fretting over the supercilious nonsense that prevails on th' tinternet

 

 

These movements are produced in their 100's of thousands year on year and are marketed worldwide (not just in reps)

 

 

How could this possibly be if they dont frakkin work n'est pas?

 

 

 

B)

 

.

[myaz 3]

@Narikaa. Duly noted, thanks

[trailboss99 997]

Yup, I believe that's a Sea-Gull in those so no issues there.

[Luthier 1]

Myaz, I have about 15 reps with 21j, most of them are 4-5 years old, all never serviced, all runs perfectly, and keeping good time. So, maybe, I'm lucky, maybe, it's just a good movement.

+1 @ Narikaa.

[narikaa 129]

So, maybe, I'm lucky, maybe, it's just a good movement.

 

 

& maybe you just dont listen when people who know waaay more than mere mortals tell you that they are crap and wholly beneath their lofty contempt

 

 

 

 

 

.

[Scavolas 0]

I think I get the point of the OP. IF a watch is supposed to be working all the time (and not every second Sunday of the twenty-second week of every third year), for 80-100 USD it is fair to assume this quality.

 

I also get it that senior members and dealers confirm that Asian 2803/2813 movements provide this quality requirement MOST of the time. The question is how much is MOST? 66% or 99%? Why is that by general rule and due to replica business basic cirsumstances, there is no such thing as a manufacturers warranty on these products. So there are no consumer rights whatsoever. (dealers favors and services shall not be mixed up with rights)

 

I also see Narikaa's point in saying that 21J movements are hugely mass-produced therefore by statistical chance there must be some bad apples in the bunch, even though the overwhelming majority seems to be OK.

 

And nobody seem to note for the OP, that IF something goes wrong, most of the time it is very simple to replace the movement with a fresh 25 USD piece. Which I believe is far from being the case for all the other movements...

Edited April 29, 2011 by Scavolas

[narikaa 129]

Now theres a concept

 

 

Consumer rights with illegal goods (let alone ANY goods bought in China)

 

 

 

 

'Dear Mr Escobar I recently bought a wrap of your esteemed yeyo at one of your outlets over the railway tracks from my home, I note with dismay that it is NOT of pharmaceutical quality! So I ask - nay DEMAND - to know how you propose restitution'

 

 

 

.

[Scavolas 0]

I hear you, but you know that I only talked about the movements -- or 21J movements are illegal goods as well?

Producing any type of goods with warranty is not part of the concept in China? In my opinion, it is very lame to bunk beneath 'illegality' when buyers pay with real money and manufacturers and dealers do nice profit to get a living on that money. Not very nice idea as a discipline. Again, I only talked about movements, irrevelant to what kind of watches they are put in.

 

Now theres a concept

 

 

Consumer rights with illegal goods (let alone ANY goods bought in China)

 

 

 

 

'Dear Mr Escobar I recently bought a wrap of your esteemed yeyo at one of your outlets over the railway tracks from my home, I note with dismay that it is NOT of pharmaceutical quality! So I ask - nay DEMAND - to know how you propose restitution'

 

 

 

.

[Balad1 0]

I hear you, but you know that I only talked about the movements -- or 21J movements are illegal goods as well?

Producing any type of goods with warranty is not part of the concept in China? In my opinion, it is very lame to bunk beneath 'illegality' when buyers pay with real money and manufacturers and dealers do nice profit to get a living on that money. Not very nice idea as a discipline. Again, I only talked about movements, irrevelant to what kind of watches they are put in.

 

Now theres a concept

 

 

Consumer rights with illegal goods (let alone ANY goods bought in China)

 

 

 

 

'Dear Mr Escobar I recently bought a wrap of your esteemed yeyo at one of your outlets over the railway tracks from my home, I note with dismay that it is NOT of pharmaceutical quality! So I ask - nay DEMAND - to know how you propose restitution'

 

 

 

.

 

+1

[subiim 0]

This watch is a bit like Elton John ... ugly and super gay

[narikaa 129]

Rose coloured glasses Im afraid

 

Theres NO consumers rights as such in much of the Far East, 'you bought it - its yours, why tell me about problems with your belongings' is basically the credo.

 

So maybe the movements arent illegal per se but the above still holds true

 

And dont lose sight of the fact that however you gloss over the situation - you are buying (either directly or indirectly) from Chinese criminals - which by any stretch of the imagination (however stunted) is a far cry from cushioned purchases in western retail outlets.

 

 

.

[Baldrick 1]

In my opinion, it is very lame to bunk beneath 'illegality' when buyers pay with real money and manufacturers and dealers do nice profit to get a living on that money.

 

Not lame at all to bunk hide beneath illegality, even if the buyer is parting with real money, both parties are complicit in an illegality, the fact that the law turns a blind eye doesn't make it any less illegal, the buyer is buying counterfeit items, he is aware he is buying them, he must accept the consequences of his complicity, if that means he gets poor quality or arrested, it's par for the course, there are no warranties, only goodwill from the dealers !

[Brightlight 0]

Rose coloured glasses Im afraid

 

Theres NO consumers rights as such in much of the Far East, 'you bought it - its yours, why tell me about problems with your belongings' is basically the credo.

 

So maybe the movements arent illegal per se but the above still holds true

 

And dont lose sight of the fact that however you gloss over the situation - you are buying (either directly or indirectly) from Chinese criminals - which by any stretch of the imagination (however stunted) is a far cry from cushioned purchases in western retail outlets.

 

 

.

 

Illegality not always the case Narikaa but you're right about no consumer rights. Cousins UK supply DG2813, NN2813, etc. I've had one go dead in a week with a broken balance spring and they tell me their Chinese supplier gives no warranty whatsoever so hard luck consumer. They are what they are, dirt cheap disposable movements with poor quality control and lubrication and a jerky second hand sweep thanks to the non direct seconds drive, and luck of the draw whether you get one that lasts a couple of years or a couple of weeks. I've replaced far too many of them to have any doubts about their patchy quality. Personally I wouldn't have a watch with one, but then I don't have a big collection of watches and wear them all so they each get very little use individually. I wear the same watch for long periods of time, so have ETA movements, which I have stripped, cleaned and serviced, only. Having said that the 21J is great value when you can get a complete watch for say £65 and replace the movement when it goes for £15. Just not for me.

[merry1 0]

It looks lovely go ahead buy it.

[Brightlight 0]

In my opinion, it is very lame to bunk beneath 'illegality' when buyers pay with real money and manufacturers and dealers do nice profit to get a living on that money.

 

Not lame at all to bunk hide beneath illegality, even if the buyer is parting with real money, both parties are complicit in an illegality, the fact that the law turns a blind eye doesn't make it any less illegal, the buyer is buying counterfeit items, he is aware he is buying them, he must accept the consequences of his complicity, if that means he gets poor quality or arrested, it's par for the course, there are no warranties, only goodwill from the dealers !

 

Yes but the problem is that we, or at least some of us, don't like to admit or think about the fact that what we are doing is illegal, we treat it in the same way as speeding, and hope we'll get away with it most of the time. this is why you get the expectation of consumer rights. In actual fact I think we're very lucky, the recommended dealers tend to operate reasonably fairly which is a lot more than you'd expect if you were buying drugs for example.

[narikaa 129]

@ Brightlight

 

 

See..... even a Western primo supplier (hiding behind its 'wholesale' status) provides ZERO customer service

 

 

 

As an anecdotal aside I recall an hysterical interlude in Thailand some time back when a ruffled German came howling back to a watch vendor as apparently the Rolex hed bought an hour or two back had given up the ghost. It developed into the predictable street theatre. Eventually the German went and returned with the police, who dutifully listened to him then the vendor...then out came the handcuffs and a swift vicious arrest OF THE GERMAN followed

 

 

Yes but the problem is that we, or at least some of us, don't like to admit or think about the fact that what we are doing is illegal, we treat it in the same way as speeding, and hope we'll get away with it most of the time. this is why you get the expectation of consumer rights.

 

Most of the western world likes to similarly not acknowledge death, they conveniently push that from view and prefer 'not to think about it' too, but however much of a surprise it might be when it comes a calling it really is very real and absolute

 

 

.

 

.

[solkryssare 109]

In my opinion, it is very lame to bunk beneath 'illegality' when buyers pay with real money and manufacturers and dealers do nice profit to get a living on that money.

 

Not lame at all to bunk hide beneath illegality, even if the buyer is parting with real money, both parties are complicit in an illegality, the fact that the law turns a blind eye doesn't make it any less illegal, the buyer is buying counterfeit items, he is aware he is buying them, he must accept the consequences of his complicity, if that means he gets poor quality or arrested, it's par for the course, there are no warranties, only goodwill from the dealers !

 

Yes but the problem is that we, or at least some of us, don't like to admit or think about the fact that what we are doing is illegal, we treat it in the same way as speeding, and hope we'll get away with it most of the time. this is why you get the expectation of consumer rights. In actual fact I think we're very lucky, the recommended dealers tend to operate reasonably fairly which is a lot more than you'd expect if you were buying drugs for example.

 

 

+ a trillion. Time to get real about what we are collecting here. It aint fluffy white rabbits. These are highly illegal items.

[Scavolas 0]

Sorry for the OP, now I will be a jerk: so a replica with a genuine Swiss ETA movement inside also loses all its movement warranty, and not because original rules set by the manufacturer of the movement, but because it is put inside an illegal counterfeit good? So therefore it may be that Swatch Group (or Sellita for that matter) already had their lawyers pen some nice 50-page document saying that they only have warranty on their manufactured movements when they are put into watches they legally permit? Hypocrite behavior. A nice part of ETA/Swatch's income from wholesale selling of their movements therefore is illegal and must be punishable since knowingly by all parties the movements go into counterfeit watches?

 

Just to be on the topic, I think Brightlight has said it frankly and corroborated the OP opinion, minus the warranty 'problem'. So, it is better to say out loud, 21J is a crap and without warranty for not being so. ANyone's experience with 21J that disagrees with this is due to pure good luck without any consequences.

[David543 0]

I have 6 reps, four fro 2006, I think they have a mix ot eta, Asian eta 21j and 7750. Never had a problem with any of them.....

 

If you can find somewhere, get it serviced she en you receive it, that should help it's long term life.

[narikaa 129]

Sorry for the OP, now I will be a jerk: so a replica with a genuine Swiss ETA movement inside also loses all its movement warranty, and not because original rules set by the manufacturer of the movement, but because it is put inside an illegal counterfeit good? So therefore it may be that Swatch Group (or Sellita for that matter) already had their lawyers pen some nice 50-page document saying that they only have warranty on their manufactured movements when they are put into watches they legally permit? Hypocrite behavior. A nice part of ETA/Swatch's income from wholesale selling of their movements therefore is illegal and must be punishable since knowingly by all parties the movements go into counterfeit watches?

 

Just to be on the topic, I think Brightlight has said it frankly and corroborated the OP opinion, minus the warranty 'problem'. So, it is better to say out loud, 21J is a crap and without warranty for not being so. ANyone's experience with 21J that disagrees with this is due to pure good luck without any consequences.

 

 

 

 

Exactly right

 

Every 21j will not and can not work, of course they dont all the millions of them - all no good

 

Whereas if you buy an ETA inside your rep it will of course be wholly flawless, brand spanking new, as Swiss as a mountain fresh Toblerone, and as a consequence the whole of Guangdong province stands ready - screwdrivers and lube in hand - to remedy your every complaint.

 

 

Now if I can but get my tongue out of my cheek long enough... 'laywers, 50 page documents' what are you going on about??? Any warranty is from your supplier (remember the Chinese criminal types) not some Zurich gnome.

 

 

.

[tissotman 0]

ivt got several 21 jewel movement watches that are over 5 years old, with no problems running never serviced i think the trick with copy watches is have as many as you can afford ive got over 20 still and wear them at differant times so they are never being worn for more than a week at a time and rotate the watches this way they will last for many years , saying that i spent £935 on a genuine 7750 tissot prs516 in December and it lasted 3 weeks ! and then stopped luckily its under warrenty so i had a brand new watch that touch wood is running fine but theres not much differance in the movements of these watches they are all pretty good but ive had 21 jewel lasting longer than etas.

[Baldrick 1]

There are none so blind as those who will not see :P

 

Try buying a cheap Chinese amlifier, which looks very pretty and has a great LED display, then swap the output stages from a genuine Yamaha amplifier into the cheap Chinese amplifier which then goees tits up and see how accomodating Yamaha will be

[Scavolas 0]

I am sorry, you tear down all our illlusions that might be connected to this whole concept.

Your tounge-in-cheek realism is about (and forgive me if I wrongly interpret it), regardless of the movements (and whatnot) inside, Chinese replicas are illegal shit, buyers are better off not expecting anything in exchange for their money, they should be glad not being put into jail (after they spent their money, of course) for keeping alive this whole nonsense business.

A very frustrating idea.

 

But, this is getting into a very important and informative thread for everyone here, since it almost conceptualizes the essence of the replica business model: replica customers f@ck off and shut up for your criminal behavior, be glad to get something that works at all.

 

So there goes the very good logic for 'trusted dealers' that represent a overwhleming minority in this type of business model. But of course regardless of their fortunate existance, they still sell us cheap illegal shit.

 

Again, this is very said and breaks illusions.

[Scavolas 0]

Not the way you described it, but it would be a rather strange behavior if Yamaha would produce 5-times the parts that would wind up in their (or licensed manufacturers) products, ripping all the financial benefits for them, double so because they could knowingly forget about providing mgf warranty for 4/5 of their output. It just against their own basic sense as a market leader. It is a shameless predatory and hypocrite behavior on ETA/Swatch side, to say the least. The Chinese part of the story is pure illegal counterfeiting, but it is fueled a great proportion by the Swiss movemement manufacturers profit hunger.

 

There are none so blind as those who will not see

 

Try buying a cheap Chinese amlifier, which looks very pretty and has a great LED display, then swap the output stages from a genuine Yamaha amplifier into the cheap Chinese amplifier which then goees tits up and see how accomodating Yamaha will be :o

Edited April 29, 2011 by Scavolas