Where is the whole rep thing going? Will we see an "Ultra-Rep" soon?

[300kph 0]

The first time I saw a rep was nearly 25 years ago and it was a cheap Rolex President that looked like total junk.

 

Now we are seeing replicas that can fool even people who own gens (until you crack the case of course, and even opened they might fool owners who have never seen the inside of their gen watch)

 

Let me put this out: When (if ever) will we see a $2,000 or $3,000 rep that will even have a super rep movement? This of course will mean a factory somewhere will have to start making clone movements. And would a move like this actually pose a threat to the big Swiss makers and force them to pursue legal means to (attempt to) end the rep trade???

 

When will be see 18K reps that are plated so heavily on actual gold colored metal that they will stand up to the rigors of everyday use without wearing thru to the steel below?

 

When will we see a $5,000 custom Daytona with perfect synthetic stones and replicates it $30,000 genuine?

 

I suppose it's what the market will bear but the fact people are laying out $500-$500 for super-reps and adding several hundred dollars of gen parts getting their clones near or past the $1,000 mark. I hear Rolex is selling a record number of gen bezel inserts these days and I am pretty sure many of them are going on peoples reps.

 

You'd like to think if there is a market they will produce higher and higher (and more expensive) reps.

 

Or am I naive? Is someone already doing "Ultra Reps? Or is the growing "Franking" community considered the pinnacle of watch repping?

 

Would be interested to hear your comments?

 

W

Edited June 2, 2013 by 300kph

[James. 4]

Phong already uses solid gold cases.

 

as for ultimate movements, the PAM unitas is already one with the incabloc upgrade imo

[LightGeek 25]

When (if ever) will we see a $2,000 or $3,000 rep that will even have a super rep movement?

 

No, because sinking that amount of money into a rep is like buying an off-lease (off-warranty) luxury car. Great while it works...

[300kph 0]

I dunno LG... With $10,000 price tags for some current gen SS watches and $30,000 to $50,000 or even $100K + when you get into precious stones etc. I think there are people out there who would spend 10% or even 20% of a rep's retail if the copy was good and if the reliability was there. Again, this would mean a manufacturer would have to reverse-engineer the most popular movements. We tend to forget the labor costs are still super-low in the countries these things are made. And if there is profit at the end of it the investment in equipment and technology will be made.

 

A seller I have been in touch with has shown me some of the technology that is going into things as small as pursuing the perfect "pearl" for rep Submariner bezel inserts. They are working so hard to make the new gen of reps ultra-realistic even under magnification and the next "frontier" will no doubt be the stuff under the hood.

 

Conversely, I doubt we'll ever see anyone making authentic looking reps of things like the mega-expensive tourbillions out there. On that note why anyone would buy some of today's current super cheap copies of mega pricey watches by AP, IWC etc. But that is probably not much different than the guy who showed me that rep President I saw all those years ago. He thought it was the shit...

 

W

Edited June 2, 2013 by 300kph

[arancini 0]

My own view is that the Rep. game exists because of its sales model ie. volume via a low price point relative to the Gen.

 

Let's face it, by and large, this industry is successful because many either can't afford the original item, or can't justify the expenditure when there's a much cheaper, albeit inferior, alternative.

 

I don't think we'll ever see a Rep costing thousands of dollars you can buy straight off the page of a TD. Frankens? Yes.

 

There's a fine line whereby the consumer will make a decision that the Rep. just isn't worth the money and they'd rather buy the Gen.

 

I'm happy to pay US$380 for a PAM 312. But ask me to pay $5k for a Rep. when I can buy a second-hand Gen. of same watch and the Rep. will lose everytime.

 

As to the underground Chinese watch industry investing the money to produce a super rep facility - can't see it happening.

 

The ongoing raids seem to be increasing as the US continues to beat the war drum against the counterfeit industries based in China, which cost their economy and firms billions of dollars annually.

[James. 4]

Jewelryandwatch.com

 

its already being done.

[Zachthebaker 0]

When (if ever) will we see a $2,000 or $3,000 rep that will even have a super rep movement?

 

No, because sinking that amount of money into a rep is like buying an off-lease (off-warranty) luxury car. Great while it works...

I disagree, imagine paying 5000$ for a spot on HW opus 13, or some other 100, 200, 300k watch.. When cost gets into the thousands a rep factory would not have to mass produce watches.. So a talented watchmaker in china could spend the time to make everything line up and leave no unfinished surface.. use gen quality pins, tubes ect.. at that price they could probably even offer warranties. you get what you pay for, right?

[TheSav 2]

Personally I would never cough up 2-3k for a rep no matter how good it was nor how expensive the gen is. For that sort of money I would rather have a secondhand gen or 5 or 6 good reps.

 

Also, IMO, it is much easier for dealers and factories to sell 5 or 6 good reps for a combined 2-3 k than to sell one for a 2-3 k price tag.

[arancini 0]

Personally I would never cough up 2-3k for a rep no matter how good it was nor how expensive the gen is. For that sort of money I would rather have a secondhand gen or 5 or 6 good reps.

 

Exactly my point Sav.

 

There comes a price point where the perceived "value for money" of the Rep. no longer applies.

[LightGeek 25]

I dunno LG... With $10,000 price tags for some current gen SS watches and $30,000 to $50,000 or even $100K + when you get into precious stones etc. I think there are people out there who would spend 10% or even 20% of a rep's retail if the copy was good and if the reliability was there. Again, this would mean a manufacturer would have to reverse-engineer the most popular movements. We tend to forget the labor costs are still super-low in the countries these things are made. And if there is profit at the end of it the investment in equipment and technology will be made.

 

A seller I have been in touch with has shown me some of the technology that is going into things as small as pursuing the perfect "pearl" for rep Submariner bezel inserts. They are working so hard to make the new gen of reps ultra-realistic even under magnification and the next "frontier" will no doubt be the stuff under the hood.

 

Conversely, I doubt we'll ever see anyone making authentic looking reps of things like the mega-expensive tourbillions out there. On that note why anyone would buy some of today's current super cheap copies of mega pricey watches by AP, IWC etc. But that is probably not much different than the guy who showed me that rep President I saw all those years ago. He thought it was the shit...

 

W

 

Now that's fine and dandy until that $5k rep dies and there isn't any billion dollar company backing it. If I'm spending $5k on a rep, I am likely in the company of folks that can spend $15k on the gen. For me the fine line to cross with "off the shelf" reps is about $600. Any more than that and I'll raise some more funds and buy a gen 2012 SOA for a little more than twice that amount.

[300kph 0]

Very good points Aran... I would like to hear more about manufacturers who are pushing the envelope in terms of price and quality. We have some sellers right here that are waging the war to build the perfect beast. I think it very cool.

 

I'm new to the whole rep thing and while I own many gens (not all expensive) I am amazed to see what is being done in Asia.

 

Why does Rolex charge $10K for a SS watch? Because they can and because they have to... the amount of money they spend on marketing is staggering (I read somewhere that they spend more per capita on advertising than any manufacturer in the world) Yes, they have amazing technology and the resources to create new metals and materials. Still after the 40% dealer discount (well, that's what it used to be) they still make a shitload on each watch they sell. They adhere to the old "You have to spend money to make money" and the counterfeiters are playing that same game on a lesser scale.

 

I also agree a tipping point is reached where the move to a pre-owned gen is the obvious choice. Good points guys!

 

 

W

Edited June 2, 2013 by 300kph

[arancini 0]

True that a lot of the high-end watch companies have a staggering marketing budget which has been discussed on here previously.

 

Agree you have to spend money to make money. But also agree "You get what you Pay for".

 

I don't think many here would start comparing an Asian 7750 to a Gen. Calibre p.9000 movement for example.

[LightGeek 25]

I don't think many here would start comparing an Asian 7750 to a Gen. Calibre p.9000 movement for example.

 

Or even "just" a co-axial movement

[Zachthebaker 0]

has anyone on this forum ever bought a watch from Jewelryandwatch.com? Id love to see a review

[Bm69 0]

I remember a Rolex Ad telling me that rolex came across a rep hybrid that would get past most AD, he told me someone was making 18k case's and bracelets of serten Rolex then buying the steel gen version and using the movement ect. To put in the rep gold case, they must of then sold the gen steel case as parts and then sold the 18k gold hybrid as a gen not a rep. Because of the mark up Rolex charge for gold the people who were doing this could make thousands on each watch. I can't say how true this is, it is just what Iwas told by an AD when i was collecting gen Rolex years ago.

 

[sgtguk 0]

For me once I get over the $1k price tag it has to be a REALLY good franken for me to buy it, so to spend $5k on what is still a rep piece is not gonna happen for me. I do think that the longer you are in this hobby of ours the more you look toward the expensive pieces as they are usually more accurate etc etc, but the higher the price of the franken/rep the smaller the pool of buyers available to you.

 

As LG already said if I buy a rep piece for $5k from a TD when it goes wrong what happens then? Do we think the dealer will step up to fix it or would it have to go direct to the factory? It's hard enough when you spend a couple hundred on a piece and it goes tits up never mind when more money is involved.

[greg_r 84]

 

 

Or am I naive? Is someone already doing "Ultra Reps? Or is the growing "Franking" community considered the pinnacle of watch repping?

 

 

 

 

Yup - they already exist - and have done for years. Most are sold as gen, but sometimes they trickle through to our end of the rep market too - the obvious recent example being the high-end rep of the Cartier Santos 100 XL. Prices started at around $1200 and went up to $2k ish depending on the finish. Apparently made with gen parts - a couple of guys here own them.

 

Robert (aka PWC - RIP) had a few of that sort of quality through his hands over the years - he told me of a Panerai PAM233 that was indistinguishable from gen along with a couple of other models. He even considered commissioning small runs of a few select watches built up to that standard, but was unsure how big the market would be for them as they'd be expensive (albeit a lot cheaper than the real thing).

 

Personally I can't justify spending that kinda dough on a rep, and the market is small. If I'm going to spend more than about $500 on a watch, it's going to be gen.

[RUSH2112 11]

has anyone on this forum ever bought a watch from Jewelryandwatch.com? Id love to see a review

Or has anyone been able to get site to actually load?

[Mazz 62]

I believe you need to sign up for it to actually load

[Mazz 62]

Yep Robert told me some stories too. I don't rennet who but there was one PAM maker who's Pam's were just too good was basically hunted down by Panerai and put out of business.

 

[Jameslowe1 0]

Jewelryandwatch.com

 

its already being done.

 

+100

[slaughterer 0]

With the cost of most Franken projects around $3,000-4,000, I would not mind if some rep manufacturer did the dirty work and were able to reproduce all of the details we daily analyse as missing in their reps, and then charged, say, $2,000-3,000. Above that price range, however, I would rather buy second-hand gens.

As an owner of 3 Panerai gens, and twice as many Panerai reps, I have to say, the Panerai reps of the simple Base and Luminor models (000, 111, 112, 116, 117) really are amazingly good cosmetically and very good mechanically, with very few fails, and some of the Radiomirs are very, very good (380, 292), and improving. These reps, while definitely not being finished to the standards of the gens, are really eclipsing the price/value ratio of the Panerai gens, with their limited warranty of 2 years, and expensive after-service afterwards. If I could imagine a logical progression for the Panerai rep industry, it would have to involve the reproduction of more complex movements than the 6497-2s in the OPI and the improvement of materials, assembly and finishing standards.

[300kph 0]

Excellent post Slaughter! Great stuff guys.

[746_heuer 0]

When (if ever) will we see a $2,000 or $3,000 rep that will even have a super rep movement?

 

No, because sinking that amount of money into a rep is like buying an off-lease (off-warranty) luxury car. Great while it works...

I disagree, imagine paying 5000$ for a spot on HW opus 13, or some other 100, 200, 300k watch.. When cost gets into the thousands a rep factory would not have to mass produce watches.. So a talented watchmaker in china could spend the time to make everything line up and leave no unfinished surface.. use gen quality pins, tubes ect.. at that price they could probably even offer warranties. you get what you pay for, right?

 

 

Noone with a healthy brain would buy an Opus XIII rep for 5k$. If the can't make a proper Daytona, how are they going to make such a complex movement.

Two reasons why this will never happen:

China is generally focused on mass production and low price per unit because they choose to, obviously they could sell less and better but they don't want to, because there are billions of chinese who need a job, and selling luxury items wouldn't allow it.

Second, people who buy watches over 10k don't search mechanical perfection, but power, and personal satisfaction for having spent more money on a watch than their neighbor. That's why I'll never understand those of you who would buy an Asian Opus instead of a Tag, Pam, Omega or a used Rolex, to say some examples.

[Frankt8242 1]

 

 

Or am I naive? Is someone already doing "Ultra Reps? Or is the growing "Franking" community considered the pinnacle of watch repping?

 

 

 

 

Yup - they already exist - and have done for years. Most are sold as gen, but sometimes they trickle through to our end of the rep market too - the obvious recent example being the high-end rep of the Cartier Santos 100 XL. Prices started at around $1200 and went up to $2k ish depending on the finish. Apparently made with gen parts - a couple of guys here own them.

 

Robert (aka PWC - RIP) had a few of that sort of quality through his hands over the years - he told me of a Panerai PAM233 that was indistinguishable from gen along with a couple of other models. He even considered commissioning small runs of a few select watches built up to that standard, but was unsure how big the market would be for them as they'd be expensive (albeit a lot cheaper than the real thing).

 

Personally I can't justify spending that kinda dough on a rep, and the market is small. If I'm going to spend more than about $500 on a watch, it's going to be gen.

Like he said.....!!!

 

But they aren't "replicas", they're "counterfeits" that are built specifically to cheat unsuspecting tourists, and Ebay suckers...Unlike our "stock in trade" that is sold openly as replica mdse...

Unfortunately, many of the "gen crowd" do not recognise the distinction, and foster a blanket of revulsion that covers us all... :help3: :help3:

Edited June 2, 2013 by Frankt8242